Recommend
5 
 Thumb up
 Hide
18 Posts

Fantasy Frontier» Forums » Variants

Subject: My idea of a variant for the 5th player expansion rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Daniel Theuerkaufer
Germany
Freiburg
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Gamelyn Games just announced that there will be a 5th player expansion when the stretch goal of 49k is reached. Time to talk about my idea to include a game variant in this upcoming expansion.

A few days ago I posted an easy idea to offer a game variant with the base game in the Kickstarter comment section. People commented, that might be irritating and they preferred my idea to be an extra expansion. The new 5th player expansion is the best chance to think about my idea again and maybe include it. Here is how it might work...

Scenario:
The land has already been harvested for generations and people have seen many airships coming through, battling and leaving enviousness and hostility. But some areas made their own profit of it and are well meaning to new airship candidates.

Material:
some of the land tiles have symbols on them. (See Takenoko for example). These are the normal tiles wood, plains, mountains and water you already know with an addition, effecting how they react to approaching airships. Since this is a variant/expansion the symbols are printed on one side of the tile while the other side shows the tile without symbol. That way people may chose to play with or without the expansion simply by putting the tile with the symbol face down or face up.

Symbols/Effects:
A) the negatives
1. "Fire" = can't land here (flying through is allowed, landing not)
2. "Storm" = can't fly through here (landing is allowed)
3. "Suspicion" = can't exit meeples here (landing is allowed, fly through is allowed)
4. "Hostility" = can't land here (can't fly through)
5. "Sovereign Airspace" = can't attack here (landing and fly through allowed)

B) the positives
6. "Harvest Hand" = roll another die to see if you get an extra resource
7. "Mechanic" = repairs one hit spot of your airship
8. "Trading Post" = trade one material 1:1
9. "Safe Guard" = Airship can't get attacked while resting here

And so on and so on. I'd say we keep it simple and pick out the best ideas to make sure it isn't getting too much and complicated. Fire and storm are pretty good, and of course there is room for many more ideas. I'll also post this to BGG. Let us at least talk about it and tell me how you like my ideas. Thanks!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Coe
United States
Arizona
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
www.GamelynGames.com
badge
www.GamelynGames.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
snake2shake wrote:
Gamelyn Games just announced that there will be a 5th player expansion when the stretch goal of 49k is reached. Time to talk about my idea to include a game variant in this upcoming expansion.

A few days ago I posted an easy idea to offer a game variant with the base game in the Kickstarter comment section. People commented, that might be irritating and they preferred my idea to be an extra expansion. The new 5th player expansion is the best chance to think about my idea again and maybe include it. Here is how it might work...

Scenario:
The land has already been harvested for generations and people have seen many airships coming through, battling and leaving enviousness and hostility. But some areas made their own profit of it and are well meaning to new airship candidates.

Material:
some of the land tiles have symbols on them. (See Takenoko for example). These are the normal tiles wood, plains, mountains and water you already know with an addition, effecting how they react to approaching airships. Since this is a variant/expansion the symbols are printed on one side of the tile while the other side shows the tile without symbol. That way people may chose to play with or without the expansion simply by putting the tile with the symbol face down or face up.

Symbols/Effects:
A) the negatives
1. "Fire" = can't land here (flying through is allowed, landing not)
2. "Storm" = can't fly through here (landing is allowed)
3. "Suspicion" = can't exit meeples here (landing is allowed, fly through is allowed)
4. "Hostility" = can't land here (can't fly through)
5. "Sovereign Airspace" = can't attack here (landing and fly through allowed)

B) the positives
6. "Harvest Hand" = roll another die to see if you get an extra resource
7. "Mechanic" = repairs one hit spot of your airship
8. "Trading Post" = trade one material 1:1
9. "Safe Guard" = Airship can't get attacked while resting here

And so on and so on. I'd say we keep it simple and pick out the best ideas to make sure it isn't getting too much and complicated. Fire and storm are pretty good, and of course there is room for many more ideas. I'll also post this to BGG. Let us at least talk about it and tell me how you like my ideas. Thanks!


I think this is a neat idea. I'd really like to hear others thoughts on it.

It would not be part of the 5th player expansion, but possible as it's own promo pack featuring just tiles with these effects.

Some of my favorite are the Trading Post and Storms. I think a lot of ideas could come out this concept.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Theuerkaufer
Germany
Freiburg
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Why thanks, Michael. Hoping for more feedback now.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sarah Reed
United States
Rancho Cordova
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I could see this being done as tokens that get placed on existing tiles. This makes it easy to play or not play with, and cheaper to make. It also opens up design so you can have new actions to deal with these effects, or maybe manipulate them to affect other people or move them to other tiles.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Theuerkaufer
Germany
Freiburg
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sarah, that is a neat idea! We just have to figure out how these will come into play then. Maybe some tiles should have printed blank spaces on them to mark these as the tiles that will get one of those tokens. My intention was to bring these effects into play while the landscape is formed.

Possible solutions:
- each 10th tile coming to play gets an effect token
- for each 2nd tile a player places he rolls the die. 6 = place effect token

etc. What do you think? Up to now I prefer to have them fixed on a tile just as in Takenoko. That way everyone sees and knows how the landscape can be used and it doesn't change every round, which could get annoying.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sarah Reed
United States
Rancho Cordova
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I could see the roll of the die to determine if a tile gets an effect when it's placed and then which effect gets place. So on a d6, to determine if a tile gets an effect, 1-2 could be negative, 3-4 positive and then 5-6 no effect. The same die could be used to determine which effect, though it'd be best to come up with 6 options, or fewer options that can be assigned to certain sides of the dice. It also depends on whether Michael would want an effect to happen more often than others.

I think it would be better not to have it be a permanent effect on tiles, mostly because the game will be coming out without them and it's very costly to print up new tiles. Much more cost effective to make tokens that are added when players want to use the expansion.

I think it's great that the token can be moved so that gives the expansion more options. Maybe there is a new deck of cards that provide players with ways to manipulate the tokens. It could allow them to completely get rid of an effect, move an effect, or change the effect to something else. I'm sure there are even more options than that. This would make the game even more player interactive.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Theuerkaufer
Germany
Freiburg
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I like the way you are thinking, Sarah. Tokens may be temporary instead of predetermined. I took your ideas, tweaked mine and put them in a mixer. Here is my suggestion 2.0 for this possible expansion:

1. Each round the start player OR on each players turn the first thing to do is to determine effects. A die is rolled, where 1) is "remove one token", 2-3) is "no effects", 4) "move one token one tile" and 5-6) is place new effect. (We just need to figure out where the effects will appear, and why they will appear there).

2. If the die rolled 5-6) the token is drawn from a bag. That way you don't have to roll if it's a positive or negative effect and you get a late surprise. If you prefer to get the "aaahs" and "ohnoes" earlier, then your idea of assigning positive/negative effects to die numbers sounds good.

Tokens will change how players can move and act. To make sure it isn't getting too much and too much in the way I prefer to add the option to remove a token (aka problem solved) and move tokens (aka problem moved, like a fire eating new land, like traders moving on etc). That way players suffering from tokens still can influence them to change play.

Movement and removing tiles can either be done by die as described by me or by cards as you suggested. Right now I prefer the die, since it would be bad to draw cards and only get effect cards but no tile cards on your hand.

Rule clarification: in case someone moved a token to a tile with an opponents airship on it, the next time it is this opponents turn s/he has to move that ship if the token doesn't allow landing or fly through.

Ok. Still figuring out where the tokens will appear. Is it the first tile each player will place in his/her turn? Or adjacent to the tile s/he is placing?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sarah Reed
United States
Rancho Cordova
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I like your idea of drawing the tokens from a bag - a complete surprise. I also like the distribution of effects on the die. As for how frequently players should determine effects, I think there should be both choices so as a group, the players can decide how much they want effects in the game. If they want it as a minor element of the game, then only on the start player's turn is the die rolled. However, groups who really want to have a high obstacle/reward game then they can roll at the beginning of every player's turn.

I can see your point about not having cards. It is an added element and cost to deal with. However, those who want more control and strategy over manuipulating the tokens would want cards that allow them to remove or move tokens. The die is random and that could upset some people if that's the only way the tokens are changed. Though I suppose a deck of cards could also be an optional add-on. This expansion could be very modular and allow players to decide how they want to play. Kind of like the Kingsburg expansion.

Oh, and about the cards, they would not add to the map deck. It would be its own deck and be additional cards you get along with map cards. So you wouldn't have to worry about any conflict there.

As for placement... I don't see why a player can't put the token on any unoccupied tile. I know this is a little meta-game, but it's not exactly like the player is creating the effect, though you could take that stance and have it be an adjacent tile to where their ship is. I just think it should not be placed on a tile that is occipied by a ship...though that does have its strategies too. I think that would come out best in actual playtesting and is hard to theorize. I wouldn't throw anything out at this point because as I've learned from the games my husband and I have designed, an idea that you don't think much of can be the best thing for the game, but you don't know it until you play test it.

I hope Michael gets a chance to take a look at what we've come up with and let us know what he thinks. I think this is a pretty viable expansion to add more strategy and conflict (obstacles) to the game.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Coe
United States
Arizona
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
www.GamelynGames.com
badge
www.GamelynGames.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Great feedback!

I've read every word. Before this conversation began, I had been thinking about an expansion that involved storm clouds. The clouds would be manipulated in some way by the players to effect the travel and status of the other players but that is about as far as I got.

So this conversation here is actually a great way to marry the storm cloud idea with new ideas and effects and the mechanics in which to do it all with.

I will certainly spend more time with this idea once things settle down on the KS front. It would make great for a little pick-me-up expansion in the future.

Great stuff. Keep it coming.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sarah Reed
United States
Rancho Cordova
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Great! Glad you're liking it Michael! It's definitely been fun to think about and discuss!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Theuerkaufer
Germany
Freiburg
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks Sarah and Michael, my pleasure. I am really looking forward to the game and would love to talk about the expansion after it has been released.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Powers

Atlanta
Georgia
msg tools
I think another possibility of having the storm moving would be that if it comes into contact with your ship you may sustain damage. That way you have to plan your flights to land patterns based on where the storms are. Of course movements like this could get very complicated very fast.

I do like the idea of storms moving during the course of the game better than one tile being placed with a storm on it, and having that storm stay there the entire play through. But the other ideas like trade centers (which is an idea I love) should remain stationary (unless they are run by nomads).

One thing that struck me in the play-throughs was the lack of movement from the airships until they were scoring one of their cards. It seemed like a strategy was to find a group of tiles with all the resources available and park your ship over that. The addition of trading posts will tempt people to move towards them, unless of course they just hover over that instead...

Maybe even a rule where to place a tile on the board you need to be within a certain range, to properly "scout" it.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sarah Reed
United States
Rancho Cordova
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Great ideas John!

I'd also like to make a suggestion for the name of the expansion: Changing Worlds.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian K
United States
Cedar Park
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
What about making this a 5-6 player expansion, and play-testing the tile tokens to balance supporting the larger size?

Consider also another more strategic and less random mechanic for choosing which token to play, some kind of bid or auction or 'reservation' or something, maybe something the other players can see coming. Not a fan of drawing items from a hat.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sarah Reed
United States
Rancho Cordova
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
spiderM9 wrote:
What about making this a 5-6 player expansion, and play-testing the tile tokens to balance supporting the larger size?

Consider also another more strategic and less random mechanic for choosing which token to play, some kind of bid or auction or 'reservation' or something, maybe something the other players can see coming. Not a fan of drawing items from a hat.


But it needs to make thematic sense and most of the effects that will happen are not really under the player's control. A player can't control the weather. Unless a player builds an trading post, they can't control where it sets up. So it makes thematic sense to have it random. I would not say that bidding on an effect token is thematic.

I'm not usually a fan of randomness but for the placement of the effects, it feels right to me.

Now that's not to say the players shouldn't have strategic choices over the effects. I'm all for a mechanism that allows players to manipulate the effects to their benefit. Maybe another action area they can place a worker that allows them to move a storm. Even though storms move on their own, maybe there's some technology on the airships that can change the wind currents and move a storm in a different way.

As for adding a 6th player, I have yet to see many games that actually play well with 6. It usually drags down the game, takes too long and makes it un-fun. With 6 players, I'd rather split in to two groups and play 2 different games at the same time. And I do remember Michael saying that the 6th player did not work.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Theuerkaufer
Germany
Freiburg
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
@Sarah: "Changing Worlds" sounds good.

Now about the storm, does anyone know the game Wind & Wetter? It has a board with fixed hex fields and lose tokens for weather effects. In Wind & Wetter (which in my eyes is underrated here in BGG) the wind direction changes once in a while (after a particular number of rounds) and a die is rolled to determine the wind direction and thereby in which direction the effect tiles move (1 field).

Since Fantasy Frontier uses hexagonal tiles, this would work with the standard D6. Numbers 1 - 6 indicate from where the wind is blowing and to where the effect tiles move. This will only effect fire and storm, since the Nomad trading post isn't effected by wind.



The card in this image represents the board we are building of hex tiles. The image shows the example of the wind direction after a 6 was rolled with the 'weather die'. The wind blows from 6 over the board. All tiles effected by wind (fire, storm) move 1 hex field into that direction. (In this case into the direction of the '1' symbol.

I would prefer this random method over controlling the storm token actively.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sarah Reed
United States
Rancho Cordova
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Glad you like the name.

Hmmm, that is an interesting random method of movement for storm and fire. I still lean more towards player manipulation of all effects once they've been placed down using a random method. But I can see this one working as it is very thematic with the wind changing.

But one thing to keep in mind is that we don't want to make the game too fiddly. And constantly, randomly moving pieces might be a bit fiddly.

But good graphic, by the way.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Tate
United States
Tucson
Arizona
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Did anything ever come of this? I played FF this weekend and was reminded of how much I liked this game and the 5th player expansion
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.