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Subject: Adventure site timing rss

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Frank Otte
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If you are on an adventure site without drawn enemy tiles (for example a monster den) and choose to enter this adventure site, is there any time window during the action phase, to use effects, which are not allowed to be used inmidst battle, for example generating and/or using healing points or effects, which make units ready?

(1) Before drawing any enemy tiles, your healing effects must be completed.

(2) You can still use healing effects after your have drawn the tiles, but before battle starts.

(3) Neither (1) nor (2) is allowed, but you can heal right after the battle, before your turn ends.

(4) You can only heal during your movement phase in this situation. The next opportunity to heal is in your NEXT turn (so no healing after the battle).

Note: If it should make any difference to answer, we try to play with the changed "Lost Legion" rules.
 
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Alison Mandible
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I was unsure about this too, but from watching PBFs, I got the impression that healing after the battle is okay. It never would have occurred to me that I could heal after seeing the token but before fighting it.
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Frank Otte
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I regard it as especially relevant, if you are allowed to ready one of your units by a special effect, after you know, what your enemy is.
 
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Tom H
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Mandible has the right gist.

You cannot reveal the enemy until you are already in battle, so no healing once you're close enough to see the enemy. Your turn does not end when your battle ends so you can heal after the battle (and play special effects; even move effects but you can't spend the movement points so there's no reason to).
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Christian Shelton
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The above posts are correct as far as I know. Healing is not part of movement or an action. It can be done at any time during your turn except during combat. Revealing a token (attacking a mage tower at night or a monster den, for example) is part of the combat.

Note, I didn't understand the full ramifications of this until reading a PBF game. For instance, if you rest (do discard wounds), you cannot move or take an action (like combat, influence, etc). However, you can heal or use crystalize or other similar cards.
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Worth noting also, if you enter a dungeon or tomb you can spend black mana during the day, but only on spells that can be used in combat (no movement, influence or healing spells). The encounter and thus the chance to use black mana only lasts as long as the combat.
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Mike
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sunsplitter wrote:
Worth noting also, if you enter a dungeon or tomb you can spend black mana during the day, but only on spells that can be used in combat (no movement, influence or healing spells). The encounter and thus the chance to use black mana only lasts as long as the combat.


Or spells with the special action symbol, such as Mind Read or Meditation.
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Alison Mandible
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cshelton wrote:
For instance, if you rest (do discard wounds), you cannot move or take an action (like combat, influence, etc). However, you can heal or use crystalize or other similar cards.


Whoa. I did not realize that either-- maybe that's why resting never seems worthwhile to me! Very interesting. Thank you for pointing that out.
 
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Tom H
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sunsplitter wrote:
Worth noting also, if you enter a dungeon or tomb you can spend black mana during the day, but only on spells that can be used in combat (no movement, influence or healing spells). The encounter and thus the chance to use black mana only lasts as long as the combat.

This is true in basic MK but not in Lost Legions, which the OP is playing. With the rules changes move and influence effects can be played at any time in your turn.
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Frank Otte
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Btw, I have found a paragraph in the rules, which supports your assumption, namely on p. 7 of the rulebook, 3.:

"Combat starts by drawing and/or revealing all enemies you have to fight."

I assume then, if I perform an assault on a fortified site, there is always a time window between moving on that site and actually starting the combat, in which I can do non-combat effects?

If the enemy tiles there are not yet revealed, I have to do non-combat effects before their revealing. If the enemy tiles there were already revealed before my turn (or became revealed because of my movement adjacent to them), nevertheless, I am allowed to do non-combat effects after my movement onto them, but before combat (i.e. NOT in the movement phase, but in the action phase). Did I get that right?

Btw, I am aware of the fact, that for fortified sites with already revealed enemy tiles, this is not really a timing problem, because if I want to do non-combat effects before combat in that situation, I could always do them right before in my movement phase. Nevertheless, I just want to know.
 
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David desJardins
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Hermjard wrote:
I assume then, if I perform an assault on a fortified site, there is always a time window between moving on that site and actually starting the combat, in which I can do non-combat effects?


No. "Entering a space with an unconquered fortified site (keep, mage tower, or city), or with a keep owned by another player immediately ends your movement, and is considered to be an assault on that site."
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Frank Otte
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Hermjard wrote:
I assume then, if I perform an assault on a fortified site, there is always a time window between moving on that site and actually starting the combat, in which I can do non-combat effects?


No. "Entering a space with an unconquered fortified site (keep, mage tower, or city), or with a keep owned by another player immediately ends your movement, and is considered to be an assault on that site."


No, I think, this is not true. The term assault is not identical with the term combat. Assault is an action, from which the combat is a part. Conclusion: There must be a time, where you are in an assault, but not yet in combat.

Admittedly, I am not even sure, if the term "assault" is part of the actionphase at all, considering the following rule paragraph (rulebook, p.7, 2b):

"An assault is a move, and it can happen that it provokes one or more rampaging enemies."

There are more hints in the game walkthrough which support the assumption, that assault and combat ere not the same:

"Contrary to defeating rampaging enemies, assaulting a fortied
site is not something that is perceived positively by the locals –
each assault causes you to get Reputation -1.
Then, a combat is fought. If you defeat the enemy, not only do you
get Fame for defeating them, but you also conquer the keep and
become the new owner. Put one of your Shield tokens there to
mark that you were the player that conquered this keep. Only you
can benefitt from this keep.
If you fail to defeat the enemy, your assault failed.
"

"Assaulting is part of movement. If the move that results in an assault fulfills the conditions of provoking rampaging enemies (i.e. when both the space you are assaulting from and site you are assaulting
are adjacent to that monster), the provoked enemies will join the
battle, and you have to battle both them and the garrisoned enemies.
"
 
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David desJardins
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Hermjard wrote:
Assault is an action, from which the combat is a part.


No, it's not. When you assault the location, you are immediately in combat with the defenders. I don't see anything to the contrary anywhere in the rules. It seems to me you are arguing just to argue.
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Alison Mandible
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If the token isn't revealed until combat starts (which seems to be agreed), are there *any* situations where this even matters?
 
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David desJardins
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grasa_total wrote:
If the token isn't revealed until combat starts (which seems to be agreed), are there *any* situations where this even matters?


One case I thought of where it could matter is playing Healing Ritual (not usable in combat, affects the closest hero).
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Trevin Beattie
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Hermjard wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
Hermjard wrote:
I assume then, if I perform an assault on a fortified site, there is always a time window between moving on that site and actually starting the combat, in which I can do non-combat effects?


No. "Entering a space with an unconquered fortified site (keep, mage tower, or city), or with a keep owned by another player immediately ends your movement, and is considered to be an assault on that site."


No, I think, this is not true. The term assault is not identical with the term combat. Assault is an action, from which the combat is a part. Conclusion: There must be a time, where you are in an assault, but not yet in combat.


Quote:
assault
noun
1. a sudden, violent attack; onslaught: an assault on tradition.
2. Law. an unlawful physical attack upon another; an attempt or offer to do violence to another, with or without battery, as by holding a stone or club in a threatening manner.
3. Military. the stage of close combat in an attack.
4. rape1.
verb (used with object)
5. to make an assault upon; attack; assail.

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Tom H
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It makes no difference.
A) Play healing ritual during movement before an assault.
B) Play healing ritual in the putative window after assault yet before combat.

AFAICT A == B

Can anyone tell me any game difference between A and B, or is this whole discussion about a meaningless distinction?
 
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David desJardins
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Terah wrote:
It makes no difference.
A) Play healing ritual during movement before an assault.
B) Play healing ritual in the putative window after assault yet before combat.

AFAICT A == B

Can anyone tell me any game difference between A and B, or is this whole discussion about a meaningless distinction?


I just explained that. Healing Ritual affects an enemy hero based on their distance to your location, so if you play it before the assault then it might target a different enemy than if you could play it after assaulting the location but before beginning combat.
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Tom H
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Thanks David, explaining why it makes a difference helps understand what you were saying. Your example brings another one to mind: Restoration/Rebirth can get you more points if you do it in a forest.
 
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R N
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Trevin wrote:
Quote:
assault
noun
1. a sudden, violent attack; onslaught: an assault on tradition.
2. Law. an unlawful physical attack upon another; an attempt or offer to do violence to another, with or without battery, as by holding a stone or club in a threatening manner.
3. Military. the stage of close combat in an attack.
4. rape1.
verb (used with object)
5. to make an assault upon; attack; assail.



I'm a bit late to the thread, but dictionary definitions are nearly useless when discussing keywords used in a game mechanic. This is double so when you are highlighting multiple game keywords that just happen to be used in a given definition.

IRL you actually can heal in "combat", and you can certainly use magic to do so in many settings that have both. I mention this because appealing to "theme" and "realism" can cut both ways.
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