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Subject: Girls playing on boys teams = OK, Boys playing on girls team = Not OK? rss

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Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
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Welcome to the world of liberal doublethink.
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RoverGuy wrote:



Doesn't Title IX law/rule/legislation allow the boys to play on a girls team if there is no boys team? And vice versa?

http://www.usatodayhss.com/news/article/two-boys-on-girls-vo...


If it doesn't it should.

I see the real underlying issue and how hard it would be to resolve... but if all it does if force the formation of a boys team it will do something good.

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Jon M
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How the hell would that be fair? Either on the other girls who miss out or on the other girls teams they play. If they were
 
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bjlillo wrote:
Why are we even asking these kids to identify with a gender anymore? It's just ridiculous to pigeon-hole them like that.


My son is intentionally androgynous appearing.

He has a girlfriend, and is distinctly straight. But he goes out of his way for a specific, fairly... alien... style.

Think early David Bowie. He wears more eyeliner than most girls in his grade.

He did an essay in school on how he is clearly self identified as male, but he wants people to call into question whether or not that matters. In doing so he hopes people learn that gender is a biological trait that should have only as much effect on someone's treatment as eye color.

Of course, he changes his eye color daily anyway.
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Lynette
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Jon_1066 wrote:
How the hell would that be fair? Either on the other girls who miss out or on the other girls teams they play. If they were



Well not having a boys team isn't "fair" to begin with.

If the point of the law was to force the system to develop options for both genders, that should apply even for boys.
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Boaty McBoatface
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It's daft, I have always felt that to achieve equality then we have to remove gender boundaries in sport. We have female soldiers, female fire fighters, female scouts so why do we need sports segregation?

As to eh case i hand, if girls are allowed in boys teams boys should be allowed in girls teams. If that is not the case then they are not having any rights violated.
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ejmowrer wrote:
Welcome to the world of liberal doublethink.


I don't know about that, the boys are on the team for now. here are the facts that I see:

1) Boys and girls sports are different since males are typically stronger. That is not a stereotype, it's part of human biology.
2) Having boys on girls team does give a team an unfair advantage over all girl teams.
3) Parents of all girl teams get mad that their daughters can't compete.
4) League/schools try to placate parents.

Where is the "liberal" doublethink?

It is one thing for a girl who is stronger than most to try out for football and have an equal shot against boys of equivalent or lesser athleticism. It's totally different for a boy to try out for a sport where he automatically has an advantage over most of the other girls. If boys had a natural disadvantage at volleyball, this wouldn't even be an issue.

The article does talk about a "strength" test to weed out mini-hulks from taking full advantage of the playing field, but really how hard is it to fake out a strength test when the desired results are "not strong". I'm sure everyone has pretended a box was much heavier than it really was to trick somebody else for a laugh.
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Paul DeStefano
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Shushnik wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
Why are we even asking these kids to identify with a gender anymore? It's just ridiculous to pigeon-hole them like that.


My son is intentionally androgynous appearing.

He has a girlfriend, and is distinctly straight. But he goes out of his way for a specific, fairly... alien... style.

Think early David Bowie. He wears more eyeliner than most girls in his grade.

He did an essay in school on how he is clearly self identified as male, but he wants people to call into question whether or not that matters. In doing so he hopes people learn that gender is a biological trait that should have only as much effect on someone's treatment as eye color.

Of course, he changes his eye color daily anyway.


But gender is far more pertinent to athletic ability than eye color. Males are taller, more heavily muscled, and have faster reflexes on average. Eye color gives no athletic advantage.

Apples and oranges.


But that means that you get on a team based on ability. Doesn't matter whats between your legs but how fast they move.
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Lynette
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Shushnik wrote:
Meerkat wrote:
Jon_1066 wrote:
How the hell would that be fair? Either on the other girls who miss out or on the other girls teams they play. If they were



Well not having a boys team isn't "fair" to begin with.

If the point of the law was to force the system to develop options for both genders, that should apply even for boys.


It is the point of the law, and the students should be allowed to form their own team with the same resources available to it as the girls team. But Title 9 does not give them blanket access to skew the girls league with higher athletic ability by participating across gender lines.


I agree. Seems to me that formation of a boys team is the best answer. With making the entire league co-ed a less desirable but feasible second choice.

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I really wish boy's volleyball was a (typical) high school sport. It was the only athletic thing I was decent at other than swimming and running in high school.

What does everyone think about allowing boys to try out for cheerleading, dance, poms, colorguard and similar "typical" girl activities?

In general, I think it's allowed, but it seems like the same issues would apply. The typically stronger boys would have an advantage in some of the aspects of the activities like in volleyball.

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qzhdad wrote:
I really wish boy's volleyball was a (typical) high school sport. It was the only athletic thing I was decent at other than swimming and running in high school.

What does everyone think about allowing boys to try out for cheerleading, dance, poms, colorguard and similar "typical" girl activities?

In general, I think it's allowed, but it seems like the same issues would apply. The typically stronger boys would have an advantage in some of the aspects of the activities like in volleyball.



In my high school we had boys in both color guard in the marching band and a boy or two on the cheer leading squad. The cheerleaders loved it because there are a lot of college cheering moves which are Co-Ed that most high schools can't do because girls just don't have the upper body strength to toss each other around most of the time. The boys took a lot of crap from other guys... but they were strait and certainly ended up having their pick of the girls.
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Scott Russell
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Meerkat wrote:


In my high school we had boys in both color guard in the marching band and a boy or two on the cheer leading squad. The cheerleaders loved it because there are a lot of college cheering moves which are Co-Ed that most high schools can't do because girls just don't have the upper body strength to toss each other around most of the time. The boys took a lot of crap from other guys... but they were strait and certainly ended up having their pick of the girls.


I think we had one boy try out for cheerleading in grade school (we had interscholastic basketball games, it was Indiana), but the cheerleaders were elected by student voting, so he didn't make the squad.

But in my kids' high school, there has been a (self-proclaimed gay) boy in color guard, but I've not seen any in dance or cheer.

But is it fair for boys to try out? As you note, it allows the squad to do moves that all girl groups are much less likely to be able to do.

Is Rich up in arms about this situation? If not, why not?
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Shushnik wrote:
And genetically, the average male is more able to make the team than the average female.


Not if segregated by weight class.
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Geosphere wrote:

Not if segregated by weight class.


Muscle mass in the correct muscle groups can vary between people of identical weight. Even so, you can't have a volleyball team for every weight class, weight classes only really work in individual sports.
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Geosphere wrote:
Shushnik wrote:
And genetically, the average male is more able to make the team than the average female.


Not if segregated by weight class.


Are you contending that the average male vs female for same weight have similar strength? My impression was that males still have a higher average strength.

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TheChin! wrote:
Geosphere wrote:

Not if segregated by weight class.


Muscle mass in the correct muscle groups can vary between people of identical weight. Even so, you can't have a volleyball team for every weight class, weight classes only really work in individual sports.


He's 14, it's not like he put a lot of study in this.
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qzhdad wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
Shushnik wrote:
And genetically, the average male is more able to make the team than the average female.


Not if segregated by weight class.


Are you contending that the average male vs female for same weight have similar strength? My impression was that males still have a higher average strength.



See above.
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slatersteven wrote:
It's daft, I have always felt that to achieve equality then we have to remove gender boundaries in sport. We have female soldiers, female fire fighters, female scouts so why do we need sports segregation?


Jobs aren't sports. The bell curve of many physical traits (e.g. strength, height) for males is to the right of the curve for females. This means that all or nearly all of the top players in an unsegregated sport will be male. Of course, one can argue that male-female is arbitrary and that designing competitive sport so that virtually no girls or women make the team is no more or less fair than designing it so that no one under 5'2" can make the team and why don't we have separate teams for short people? For a variety of reasons, most people find gender segregated teams to be valuable.

Given the logic of having segregated teams I don't think it's hypocritical to say that girls should be eligible for boys teams but not vice versa. It's like if society had decided that it was wrong for small people to be excluded from competitive sport and created basketball teams and leagues for folks under a particular height. Allowing the rare 5'5" player who can compete with anyone to play in the tall league wouldn't be the same thing as allowing all the 6'2" people who didn't quite make the tall team to compete in the short league.
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Meerkat wrote:
Jon_1066 wrote:
How the hell would that be fair? Either on the other girls who miss out or on the other girls teams they play. If they were



Well not having a boys team isn't "fair" to begin with.

If the point of the law was to force the system to develop options for both genders, that should apply even for boys.


Ah, but therein lies the problem with Title IX. It's not applied sport by sport, it's applied to the total number of sports available to each gender. My high school didn't have a boy's volleyball team not for lack of interest, but because there weren't enough girl's sports to allow the school to field another boy's team--and that was even with counting football, wrestling, and hockey as "co-ed" sports because technically anyone could play.

Edit to add: Oh, and counting cheerleading and the pom squad/dance team as separate "girl's" activities even though they had almost exactly the same people.
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I've done co-ed MMA.

The women tend to have (TEND) less mass, but are a bit more agile.

In grappling, men seemed far better. But if it was a stand up fight, it was pretty equal.
 
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Chad_Ellis wrote:

Given the logic of having segregated teams I don't think it's hypocritical to say that girls should be eligible for boys teams but not vice versa.


I agree with this and I believe it is very valuable and necessary to have competitive female only sports. If a girl is good enough to compete with the boys, then great.

To me, it's easy. For competitions where gender is important such as sports or beauty pageants or whatever, it doesn't matter what you do to your privates, what gender you identify with, or what message you want to send to others about your gender. If you have a Y chromosome, you compete with the males.
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RoverGuy wrote:


Doesn't Title IX law/rule/legislation allow the boys to play on a girls team if there is no boys team? And vice versa?



No, for obvious reasons. Boys are naturally bigger, stronger, and faster on average. Allowing boys to play with girls would skew the competitive balance, encourage schools to find more boys to play, and over time the league would evolve into mostly or completely a boy's sport to the exclusion of all but the very best female players--you know, the very thing Title IX was meant to prevent.

ejmowrer wrote:
Welcome to the world of liberal doublethink.


Oh give me a break, Eric. This is ridiculous. You really can't see the obvious reasons this makes sense while forbidding girls to play on boys teams doesn't?

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Sky Knight X wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:

Given the logic of having segregated teams I don't think it's hypocritical to say that girls should be eligible for boys teams but not vice versa.


I agree with this and I believe it is very valuable and necessary to have competitive female only sports. If a girl is good enough to compete with the boys, then great.

To me, it's easy. For competitions where gender is important such as sports or beauty pageants or whatever, it doesn't matter what you do to your privates, what gender you identify with, or what message you want to send to others about your gender. If you have a Y chromosome, you compete with the males.


I would agree with this as far as sports go. I don't care enough about beauty pageants to care one way or the other.
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ejmowrer wrote:
Welcome to the world of liberal doublethink.


Yup. It's the world in which it's possible to sincerely care about principles but to allow practical consequences some weight in one's thinking.

I think it compares favorably to the absolutist singlethink of the Tea Party.
 
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Geosphere wrote:
I've done co-ed MMA.

The women tend to have (TEND) less mass, but are a bit more agile.

In grappling, men seemed far better. But if it was a stand up fight, it was pretty equal.


Sure. On the other hand, a team of WNBA all-stars would have a hard time competing with a bottom of the barrel NBA team because of the disparity in height, weight, strength, and speed.

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