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Subject: New article about the plugged in runners rss

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Kendall Merriman
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http://fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=4380

Not sure how newsworthy, but there you go.
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Vince Alvarez
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personwholives wrote:
http://fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=4380

Not sure how newsworthy, but there you go.


THIS NEW SPOILED CARD, ACCOUNT SIPHON, IS GONNA BREAK THE GAME! RIP ANR! IT WAS FUN WHILE IT LASTED.

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Jeremy Owens
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Fantasy Flight wrote:
It will impact both the existing card pool and the design of new cards meant to complement the new Runner identity.


I think article may be a response to the Collective-is-too-strong-so-vote-for-Fisk movement. They're saying to the player base "Calm down, we got this. Just vote for the ID you like better and let us worry about the health of the game."
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Slightly Alive
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One bit of news in there for Collective that I don't think has been officially confirmed (but certainly assumed) before:

Quote:
Can you use Magnum Opus (Core Set, 44) three times in a row to gain six credits and an additional click? The answer is, “Yes.” Likewise, you could use Professional Contacts (Creation and Control, 49) three times in a row to gain three credits, draw three cards, and gain a click.


Still doesn't answer other finer points of what counts as "an action" for the sake of triggering Collective, like if you want to play a card from hand 3x, does it have to be the same card; or if you choose to run, must you run the same server all three times?

Even with just the confirmation this gives, it's convinced me that Fisk is the better vote for the overall evolution of the game. 3x MO is better than draw/play a Sure Gamble every turn, 3x PC is a Diesel plus Easy Mark every turn.

Edit: Agree that it's meant to convince us that they're taking Collective's potential into account and promising to not let it break the game... They just did a horrible and unconvincing job at it.
 
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mathew rynich
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If it did anything it just reinforced by opinion that Fisk is the more interesting ID. I'd really like to see how they can support his style of milling with other new cards. It just sounds cooler. Effects based on the number of cards in the corps HQ sounds like a cool trigger.

Giving The Collective a host of options to use their repetitive action engine doesn't sound too appealing to me. Something to install in faction that cost clicks to expose a card? Something to install in faction that cost clicks to cheaply remove tags. I'm not sure I'm interested in this route, but hey maybe I'm wrong and they have cool ideas to spice up the Collective.
 
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Nathaniel Kernes
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phillosmaster wrote:
If it did anything it just reinforced by opinion that Fisk is the more interesting ID. I'd really like to see how they can support his style of milling with other new cards. It just sounds cooler. Effects based on the number of cards in the corps HQ sounds like a cool trigger.

Giving The Collective a host of options to use their repetitive action engine doesn't sound too appealing to me. Something to install in faction that cost clicks to expose a card? Something to install in faction that cost clicks to cheaply remove tags. I'm not sure I'm interested in this route, but hey maybe I'm wrong and they have cool ideas to spice up the Collective.


Fisk likely will get things like a Virus that stacks counters to lower Corp's hand size, ways to access cards in HQ without runs (like Raymond Flint accessing a card when the Corp takes a BP). Things that over all make the game shorter and put more pressure on the Corp. Focusing more on a time deny than a econ deny.

The Collective I see getting stuff that has special effects when use more than once a turn. Like an Event that you can only play if you have made 3 runs this turn or a Econ card that gives extra credits on the 3rd click you spend on it. More or less extra abilities that play off doing 3 of the same thing.

Both can be interesting, I like the Collective a bit more as I like the brute force power they have for just smashing into servers with standard breakers over AI breaks (I hate AI breakers from a design stand point). Fisk might be fun but with Caissa deny style coming up I really don't want to see another kind of deny play rolling out in the nearish future.
 
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mathew rynich
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In other FFG news it seems like FFG can't find anyone to take that "Line Cook" position. they keep reposting it every couple of days. Business must be good if FFG is staffing a full kitchen at their office.
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Nathaniel Kernes
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phillosmaster wrote:
In other FFG news it seems like FFG can't find anyone to take that "Line Cook" position. they keep reposting it every couple of days. Business must be good if FFG is staffing a full kitchen at their office.

I heard they are adding in a kitchen service to the Event Center.
 
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mathew rynich
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That makes more sense. I had envisioned some dude just sitting there flipping omelets for executives
 
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Doug Law
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OnlyMostlyDead wrote:
One bit of news in there for Collective that I don't think has been officially confirmed (but certainly assumed) before:

Quote:
Can you use Magnum Opus (Core Set, 44) three times in a row to gain six credits and an additional click? The answer is, “Yes.” Likewise, you could use Professional Contacts (Creation and Control, 49) three times in a row to gain three credits, draw three cards, and gain a click.


Still doesn't answer other finer points of what counts as "an action" for the sake of triggering Collective, like if you want to play a card from hand 3x, does it have to be the same card; or if you choose to run, must you run the same server all three times?

Even with just the confirmation this gives, it's convinced me that Fisk is the better vote for the overall evolution of the game. 3x MO is better than draw/play a Sure Gamble every turn, 3x PC is a Diesel plus Easy Mark every turn.

Edit: Agree that it's meant to convince us that they're taking Collective's potential into account and promising to not let it break the game... They just did a horrible and unconvincing job at it.


I am still unsure how that works. It seems like actions are specifically defined by the rule book. I was in the camp that using Magnum Opus was a paid ability with the cost of a click. I guess it would be tempting to vote against The Collective just to keep the FAQ shorter.
 
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Jeremy Owens
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dlaw008 wrote:
I am still unsure how that works. It seems like actions are specifically defined by the rule book. I was in the camp that using Magnum Opus was a paid ability with the cost of a click. I guess it would be tempting to vote against The Collective just to keep the FAQ shorter.


The rulebook does do this. Go to page 15:
Quote:
The Runner can perform any of the following actions as many
times as he likes, and in any combination, provided he can pay
for them. These are listed in the format of “cost: effect.”
• [click]: Draw one card from the stack.
• [click]: Gain 1 credit.
• [click]: Install a program, resource, or piece of hardware.
• [click]: Play an event.
• [click], 2 credits: Remove one tag.
• [click]: Make a run.
• Trigger a [click] ability on an active card (cost varies).


Also see page 21:
Quote:
Paid abilities can be triggered at the beginning of each turn,
before and after each player action, and at certain points during
a run, unless the ability requires a click, in which case it must be
triggered as an action.


MO is a paid ability. But it is a paid ability that must be triggered as an action.

For the collective, the same action three times triggers the ID ability. Triggering the Paid ability of MO as an action three times in a row fulfills the condition.
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Doug Law
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malhaku wrote:
dlaw008 wrote:
I am still unsure how that works. It seems like actions are specifically defined by the rule book. I was in the camp that using Magnum Opus was a paid ability with the cost of a click. I guess it would be tempting to vote against The Collective just to keep the FAQ shorter.


The rulebook does do this. Go to page 15:
Quote:
The Runner can perform any of the following actions as many
times as he likes, and in any combination, provided he can pay
for them. These are listed in the format of “cost: effect.”
• [click]: Draw one card from the stack.
• [click]: Gain 1 credit.
• [click]: Install a program, resource, or piece of hardware.
• [click]: Play an event.
• [click], 2 credits: Remove one tag.
• [click]: Make a run.
• Trigger a [click] ability on an active card (cost varies).


Also see page 21:
Quote:
Paid abilities can be triggered at the beginning of each turn,
before and after each player action, and at certain points during
a run, unless the ability requires a click, in which case it must be
triggered as an action.


MO is a paid ability. But it is a paid ability that must be triggered as an action.

For the collective, the same action three times triggers the ID ability. Triggering the Paid ability of MO as an action three times in a row fulfills the condition.


Got it. I guess that would mean you could mix and match PC and MO clicks to get the extra action.
 
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Jeremy Owens
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dlaw008 wrote:
Got it. I guess that would mean you could mix and match PC and MO clicks to get the extra action.


That is however incorrect. Triggering MO as an action is not the same as triggering PC as an action.
This has already been confirmed by FFG.

The area still up to question is around "Play an Event" and "Make a Run". For the purposes of the 'same action' is the preposition included?

Is playing Easy Mark "Play the Event 'Easy Mark'" or is it considered "Play an Event"?
Is running on HQ "Make a Run on HQ" or "Make a Run" and selecting HQ?

How those are defined could potentially change how the collective functions.

Personally, I believe that Playing Easy Mark, Diesel, and then Inside Job would trigger the click. However, I am not FFG so it could potentially be up in the air.
 
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Doug Law
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Jeez. It seems a little silly to write a defininition about what constitues an action, delineating several specific different actions, then make a card that references actions and ignore the definition you wrote.
 
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Rana Puer
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phillosmaster wrote:
That makes more sense. I had envisioned some dude just sitting there flipping omelets for executives


"You want to be cheap, be cheap. But you want to flex your muscles? Go ahead and do it. Do it right. You’re driving one of the gaming world’s mightiest megacorporations. You have credits like most people have red blood cells. Now, you can use it. Hire an omelette cook. Delicious.”
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Matthew McFarland
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malhaku wrote:
dlaw008 wrote:
Got it. I guess that would mean you could mix and match PC and MO clicks to get the extra action.


That is however incorrect. Triggering MO as an action is not the same as triggering PC as an action.
This has already been confirmed by FFG.

The area still up to question is around "Play an Event" and "Make a Run". For the purposes of the 'same action' is the preposition included?

Is playing Easy Mark "Play the Event 'Easy Mark'" or is it considered "Play an Event"?
Is running on HQ "Make a Run on HQ" or "Make a Run" and selecting HQ?

How those are defined could potentially change how the collective functions.

Personally, I believe that Playing Easy Mark, Diesel, and then Inside Job would trigger the click. However, I am not FFG so it could potentially be up in the air.


I'm right with you. Remember, actions are defined by "cost: effect" (spending one or more clicks), which is why Magnum Opus triggers--MO's text list cost: effect with a click as the cost and gaining two credits as the effect. I also believe, since "make a run" and "play an event" are only defined in those terms, that it would be silly to require playing the same event or making a run on the same server to trigger the ability.

For what it's worth, The Collective sounds cool (and more in line with my playstyle), but Fisk sounds a lot more fun.
 
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Double Plus Undead
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malhaku wrote:
The area still up to question is around "Play an Event" and "Make a Run". For the purposes of the 'same action' is the preposition included?

Is playing Easy Mark "Play the Event 'Easy Mark'" or is it considered "Play an Event"?
Is running on HQ "Make a Run on HQ" or "Make a Run" and selecting HQ?


I wonder how often Lukas facepalms in a day...

Quote:
Personally, I believe that Playing Easy Mark, Diesel, and then Inside Job would trigger the click. However, I am not FFG so it could potentially be up in the air.


I know I'm going to regret asking this, but... What part of "[click]: Play an event" and "[click]: Make a run" is confusing?
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heyvince wrote:
personwholives wrote:
http://fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=4380

Not sure how newsworthy, but there you go.


THIS NEW SPOILED CARD, ACCOUNT SIPHON, IS GONNA BREAK THE GAME! RIP ANR! IT WAS FUN WHILE IT LASTED.

:p


JUST THINK ABOUT PLAYING 3 ACCOUNT SIPHONS, THEN USING SHAPER RECURSION TO PLAY IT 2 MORE TIMES ALL IN ONE TURN!!!!
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malhaku wrote:

That is however incorrect. Triggering MO as an action is not the same as triggering PC as an action.
This has already been confirmed by FFG.


Citation please?
 
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Vince Alvarez
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trekkienz wrote:
malhaku wrote:

That is however incorrect. Triggering MO as an action is not the same as triggering PC as an action.
This has already been confirmed by FFG.


Citation please?


It's in the article that this thread is about. Did you read the article? The article explains that different cards introduce new and different actions.It them immediately gives the example of MO and PC as two different actions that fulfill the requirement.
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heyvince wrote:
trekkienz wrote:
malhaku wrote:

That is however incorrect. Triggering MO as an action is not the same as triggering PC as an action.
This has already been confirmed by FFG.


Citation please?


It's in the article that this thread is about. Did you read the article? The article explains that different cards introduce new and different actions.It them immediately gives the example of MO and PC as two different actions that fulfill the requirement.


Even without that article, Lukas has explicitly confirmed that you must use the same card's click ability three times. It's in another thread here on BGG (forgive me for not linking it, don't have time to search right now).

I'm also firmly in the camp that ANY three event cards would trigger. As mentioned previously, CLICK : PLAY AN EVENT is defined in the rules as an action. It's not CLICK : PLAY EASY MARK or CLICK : PLAY A SPECIFIC EVENT. Spending a click and playing an event - any event - fulfils the requirement of completing this specific action.

The reason mixing MO and PC wouldn't work is because one is CLICK : GAIN 2 CREDITS whilst the other is CLICK : GAIN 1 CREDIT AND DRAW 1 CARD. There are inherently two different things; they merely share the same cost as any other ability.
 
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Corvus_ wrote:
Reply from Lucas:

Quote:

Rule Question:
Would triggering the [click] ability on different active cards count as the 'same action' for The Collective?

Thanks for the question. You would have to trigger the ability on a single card three times in a row. Hope that helps,

--
Lukas Litzsinger


Awfully nice of him to offer a ruling on an unreleased card. I guess if you're going to vote on its inclusion it's a bit more important to know exactly what it does.

Also, as I understand his ruling using 3 All-Nighters wouldn't trigger The Collective, which I did not expect.


link: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/13329812#13329812

EX: MAGNUM OPUS, MAGNUM OPUS, MAGNUM OPUS...

PROFESSIONAL CONTACTS, PROFESSIONAL CONTACTS, PROFESSIONAL CONTACTS...
 
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Doug Law
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Yes, but do they have to be the same card? whistle

What if you always keep dual Magnum Opi?

Might be fun to tie in the card text for events, such as play three "Run" events, etc.
 
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Eyefink wrote:
malhaku wrote:
dlaw008 wrote:
Got it. I guess that would mean you could mix and match PC and MO clicks to get the extra action.


That is however incorrect. Triggering MO as an action is not the same as triggering PC as an action.
This has already been confirmed by FFG.

The area still up to question is around "Play an Event" and "Make a Run". For the purposes of the 'same action' is the preposition included?

Is playing Easy Mark "Play the Event 'Easy Mark'" or is it considered "Play an Event"?
Is running on HQ "Make a Run on HQ" or "Make a Run" and selecting HQ?

How those are defined could potentially change how the collective functions.

Personally, I believe that Playing Easy Mark, Diesel, and then Inside Job would trigger the click. However, I am not FFG so it could potentially be up in the air.


I'm right with you. Remember, actions are defined by "cost: effect" (spending one or more clicks), which is why Magnum Opus triggers--MO's text list cost: effect with a click as the cost and gaining two credits as the effect. I also believe, since "make a run" and "play an event" are only defined in those terms, that it would be silly to require playing the same event or making a run on the same server to trigger the ability.

For what it's worth, The Collective sounds cool (and more in line with my playstyle), but Fisk sounds a lot more fun.


QFT.

Play an Event is an action... you could play 3 separate events and gain a click because you performed the same action [playing an event].. 3 times.

Really shouldn't be a question on this. Don't over-think it. Look at the list of available actions to the runner...

Quote:
The Runner can perform any of the following actions as many
times as he likes, and in any combination, provided he can pay
for them. These are listed in the format of “cost: effect.”
• [click]: Draw one card from the stack.
• [click]: Gain 1 credit.
• [click]: Install a program, resource, or piece of hardware.
• [click]: Play an event.
• [click], 2 credits: Remove one tag.
• [click]: Make a run.
• Trigger a [click] ability on an active card (cost varies).


Did you play 3 events? Gain a click.
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Evan
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xpiredsodapop wrote:

Really shouldn't be a question on this. Don't over-think it. Look at the list of available actions to the runner...

Quote:
The Runner can perform any of the following actions as many
times as he likes, and in any combination, provided he can pay
for them. These are listed in the format of “cost: effect.”
• [click]: Draw one card from the stack.
• [click]: Gain 1 credit.
• [click]: Install a program, resource, or piece of hardware.
• [click]: Play an event.
• [click], 2 credits: Remove one tag.
• [click]: Make a run.
• Trigger a [click] ability on an active card (cost varies).


Did you play 3 events? Gain a click.


Yeah, as I understand it, it's just like how you can trigger 3 click abilities on active cards and--{scrolls up]--oh
 
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