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BattleCON: Devastation of Indines» Forums » Rules

Subject: Valiant Style vs Grasp rss

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Kevin Walsh
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Tanis can't move into Loki's space when using Valiant Style, but can her opponent move her into Loki's space?
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Brad Talton
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Amaranth wrote:
Tanis can't move into Loki's space when using Valiant Style, but can her opponent move her into Loki's space?


Valiant prevents players from moving into that space--including being moved into that space by others.
 
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Nerds call me
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A follow up question related to Tanis' styles: Are markers considered "opponents"? I assume not, just want to make sure.
 
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Mitko Simidchiev
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Kyokai wrote:
Amaranth wrote:
Tanis can't move into Loki's space when using Valiant Style, but can her opponent move her into Loki's space?


Valiant prevents players from moving into that space--including being moved into that space by others.


So we can take this as the final ruling on that tricky issue of whether "can't move" includes "can't be moved?" So basically any effect that prevents the opponent from moving also prevents you from moving him?
 
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Sascha Parsa
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alexmitko wrote:
Kyokai wrote:
Amaranth wrote:
Tanis can't move into Loki's space when using Valiant Style, but can her opponent move her into Loki's space?


Valiant prevents players from moving into that space--including being moved into that space by others.


So we can take this as the final ruling on that tricky issue of whether "can't move" includes "can't be moved?" So basically any effect that prevents the opponent from moving also prevents you from moving him?
I'm under the impression that Valiant is a special case here instead of the norm. I believe that most of the restrictions are intended to be a downside (Joal's Dual Wield). If they applied to your enemy (when moving you) as well that aspect would be diminished.
An universal ruling would be most welcome.
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Brad Talton
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The universal rule is that "Can't" or "restrictive" effects should always beat "do" or "permission" effects.

This is the same reason why Stun Immunity beats "stun the opponent" effects.
Stun Immunity = "you can't be stunned"
vs.
Auto-Stun = "do stun the opponent"
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Sascha Parsa
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This does not answer if "move" always includes "be moved" as well (which is the core of the issue).

With Kaitlyn's UA we seems to have a case where "is moving" is supposed to stand in for "move yourself" and "be moved".
There are many other effects where it is not clear if they only apply to "move yourself" or to "be moved" as well.

The first and most important ever recurring example would be: "Opponents cannot move [past you]".
I believe that in this case "move" does not include "be moved".

Another situation where I believe that "move" stands in for "be moved" as well: Malandrax's Alarm Trap - "Trigger: When an opponent moves adjacent to you."
I believe that the Alarm trap gets triggered even if Malandrax is the one moving the opponent adjacent to him.
 
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Brad Talton
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Phyr wrote:
This does not answer if "move" always includes "be moved" as well (which is the core of the issue).

With Kaitlyn's UA we seems to have a case where "is moving" is supposed to stand in for "move yourself" and "be moved".
There are many other effects where it is not clear if they only apply to "move yourself" or to "be moved" as well.

The first and most important ever recurring example would be: "Opponents cannot move [past you]".
I believe that in this case "move" does not include "be moved".


I think move should mean both 'you move' and 'you are moved'. If opponents can't move past you, then that should be by any effect, not just by their own effects.

Let's go ahead and say universally that 'move' means "by any means". I don't think this will interfere with anything too much one way or another.
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Sascha Parsa
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So subsequently if Seth moves the opponent with Mimic's Grasp he still maintains range.
And Khadath would not be able to pull characters through his Gate Trap without them getting stopped on the trap.

I think it could be an issue if an effect would only apply if a character moves but not when he is moved (as in the intended use of Khadath's Gate Trap).
 
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Kyokai wrote:
Phyr wrote:
This does not answer if "move" always includes "be moved" as well (which is the core of the issue).

With Kaitlyn's UA we seems to have a case where "is moving" is supposed to stand in for "move yourself" and "be moved".
There are many other effects where it is not clear if they only apply to "move yourself" or to "be moved" as well.

The first and most important ever recurring example would be: "Opponents cannot move [past you]".
I believe that in this case "move" does not include "be moved".



Let's go ahead and say universally that 'move' means "by any means". I don't think this will interfere with anything too much one way or another.


That sounds like a plan to me. I can't think of any situation where that would create an issue but it may throw off some balance. Time will tell, I suppose.
 
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Brad Talton
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I think Khadath's is the only exception, and that would be easy to put on his card in the War Reprint. Are there any others that come to mind?
 
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Sascha Parsa
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I have made a huge list on the playtest forums (Devastation->Compiled FAQ) with all cards that could be affected (I was always under the impression that move was a one sided thing).
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