Christian @BoardGameMonster
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This is another biggie from Paizo today.

I completely missed this and have been playing wrong (and there was me thinking I was something of an expert on this by now!)...

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q7dz?When-does-a-check-official...

The clarification posted today explains that the 'damage reduction' part of the check (e.g. when you use bracers of protection, arcane armor, the Guard, etc) is still considered part of the check.

As such you CANNOT play another card of the same type that you used before rolling the dice.

E.g. if you used an ally to boost your roll then you cannot use the Guard (ally) to reduce damage taken as a result of failing the check.

Arcane Armor has been errata-ed to allow it to be played even if you used a spell to attack with, but the other damage mitigation cards are now a bit less useful than you might otherwise have thought!

Mike's been a bit tentative about clarifying this (perhaps since several of us forum regulars had this completely wrong) but I'm happy with the ruling and the reasons why it should be done this way. I'm just embarrassed that I got it so wrong before and hope that this thread can help others to get it right earlier in the PACG adventures.
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Mike Selinker
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boardgamemonster wrote:
Mike's been a bit tentative about clarifying this (perhaps since several of us forum regulars had this completely wrong)


More because I'm trying to get a massive rules clarification post together, and I want to make sure I get it right. But that too.

Mike
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Purple Paladin

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No problem. This is all to be expected when Beta testing.
 
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Christian @BoardGameMonster
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Would be nice to get some Beta tester bonuses some time!
 
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M Edwards
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You shouldn't be embarrassed about getting it wrong before, because this is actually a change to earlier rulings.
 
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Mike Selinker
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medwards wrote:
You shouldn't be embarrassed about getting it wrong before, because this is actually a change to earlier rulings.


Can you tell me where we've ruled otherwise? I'm not saying it didn't happen. I am saying I don't know that it happened.
 
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Mike Selinker
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Never mind. I found it.

Mike Selinker wrote:
The first check (Lem is hit with a hammer) is over by the time Lem is assessed damage. Prior to that, there's a step called Make the Roll where you determine success or failure. Then the check is over, and you take the damage.*
*If this were not true, a spellcaster who cast a spell in combat would not be able to cast Arcane Armor.


Well, this is why I declared my comments unofficial. That's not what the rules say, and it's not what the rules mean. I'll have more to say about this very soon.

Mike
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Tim McCormley
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boardgamemonster wrote:
Arcane Armor has been errata-ed to allow it to be played even if you used a spell to attack with, but the other damage mitigation cards are now a bit less useful than you might otherwise have thought!

Hmmm. If, by "bit less" you mean "essentially useless," I would agree.

The only time I would play damage reduction cards is if I have zero chance of passing the check, and if the "likely" damage is more than the damage mitigation card itself. As far as I can tell, that's a rare event indeed.

Why would I even want to clutter my hand up with a damage reduction card when I could replace it with nearly any weapon, EDIT: ally or spell that would give me an opportunity to pass the check (and get me closer to completing the adventure)? Or if I want to avoid damage, why wouldn't I be collecting "evade" cards (evade all damage) instead damage "reduction" cards? (Of course there are some damage reduction cards that allow you to reduce *all* damage, and those would be a different story.)

Tim

Edit: Add "ally" and "spell" to list of damage avoiding cards.
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Scott Smart

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I don't really understand why this is a big deal. In my 4-player game, I've never once had to use an item in an attack and then use Bracers for example. Honestly, other than Sajan's amulet of mighty fists, I've barely ever used an item in an encounter other than for defense. Of course, most everyone is talking about the Guard being useless now, but in a big game, you have to have the explore allies anyway so I've never kept a Guard because of that. I mean Arcane Armor is errataed to allow it to be played with an attack spell so again, I don't understand how this is an issue.

Actually, now that I think about it, Lem is going to have a potential issue since he just picked up the Wand of Force Missiles (4d4's) or something like that in the last scenario and has the Amulet of Life or whatever (takes 3 damage and can be recharged). That's the only one I can think of, and honestly after playing a spell with the wand, I shouldn't lose anyway.
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Gamer D

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Actually this doesn't sound like a big change. In combat most of the time you use a Weapon to set the die type and get another die, maybe a blessing, and then if you fail you use an Armor card. If you're a spell caster you use an attack spell and then if you fail you can use either Arcane Armor, an Armor card or Bracers.

I'm not saying there aren't a handful of specific situations where you might use an item card to increase a check and then not be able to use another item to absorb the damage. But I can't remember those situations actually happening to me in play.
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George Leoniak
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kysmart wrote:
after playing a spell with the wand, I shouldn't lose anyway.


Not to derail the thread, but you can't play the wand and a spell together, since they both say for your combat check. This has been confirmed.
Not sure this is what you meant though.

In terms of the OP, after pondering this, i do not think it will be a big issue, as long as spell damage reduction cards are changed. But with my play style at least I never use the Guard in a deck or many other damage reduction spells. Although the loss of Mirror Image would be significant, if you played it to reduce damage before the encounter, and then were not able to play an attack spell later.
 
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Christian @BoardGameMonster
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@Tracker1 - a couple of things related to your last post!

Tracker1 wrote:
kysmart wrote:
after playing a spell with the wand, I shouldn't lose anyway.


Not to derail the thread, but you can't play the wand and a spell together, since they both say for your combat check. This has been confirmed.
Not sure this is what you meant though.


Yes, that's correct AFAIK - you cannot use the Wand of Force Missile and play a 'for your combat check' spell.

Tracker1 wrote:

Although the loss of Mirror Image would be significant, if you played it to reduce damage before the encounter, and then were not able to play an attack spell later.


I don't think this affects cards you play before/after the encounter. My understanding is that Before and After are not part of the (encounter) check so you get a full suite of card/power options in each of these windows.
 
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Christian @BoardGameMonster
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OK, I've created a first draft of a timing document based on my understanding of the rules and the forums/FAQs. I'm sure there are some errors or contentious bits of it, but the document is here:

http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/95118/turn-sequence-breakd...

Please take a look and leave feedback comments so I can improve the doc for the benefit of the whole community!
 
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Scott Smart

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Okay, so exactly why in the hell is that Wand of Force Missile in the freaking game then? Seriously, that is a horrible card because you're pretty much going to lose badly every single time you have to use it (you don't have an attack spell or weapon for a combat check). I'm glad this got clarified before I started Local Heroes so I can switch to a Caltrops (I'd dropped it in resetting the decks). Mike, you need to errata the Wand card pronto because it blows.
 
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Christian @BoardGameMonster
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Well, it lets you roll 4d4 do your min damage is 4. The average is 10, so it's twice as good as a d10 combat die. It adds magic to the check, which is useful. Need I go on?

As was pointed out to me on the Paizo forums, not every card has to bd better than something else (eg. shortbow < light crossbow). Sometimes you find useless stuff, but that's the way it goes!
 
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Scott Smart

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It's a card from Burnt Offerings and an Elite card to boot. The only people who are going to use it are spellcasters (even Sajan wouldn't use it because a d10 plus another one with a Blessing he recharges is way better plus he'd much rather have mighty fists than this card), and again they will only need this IF they don't have an attack spell or a weapon. Honestly, you're way better off with a Basic, Base Set Caltrops than this card. Shouldn't the BO Elite cards be better than the base set basic cards? Oh, and of course you can't use a blessing with it because it is a fixed 4d4.

Honestly, after playing the first two scenarios of BO, the weapons and almost all of the Items from this Adventure stink. The allies are mostly mediocre too. I like the monsters and the villains/henchmen, and the spells are pretty darn good. Overall, this pack has left a lot to be desired imho. 2 better be a lot better or else the scaling difficulty can't be a whole lot which will really tick a lot of people off.
 
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Christian @BoardGameMonster
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First off, I never use boon this myself!

Then, in its continued defence (and clarification of a couple of things you've said)...

- I think it's most useful for NON-spellcasters who want something magic up their sleeves.

- You can use blessings, but they only adds an extra d4 each

- It's an item not a weapon, so can either be used as an extra weapon or to give options to characters that don't have (many) weapons

- It's rechargable if you have the Arcane skill

- Caltrops are nice but once you've used them, they're gone and you might not find any more (you can only go back to the box for basic cards if you don't have enough cards in your party to meet everyone's deck requirements)

But enough about the Wand... we're veering off topic! If you'd like to continue this discussion please open another thread and post a link here.
 
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Christian @BoardGameMonster
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Getting back on topic...

This damage reduction phase was the final piece in the puzzle which I was putting together in both my head and in a doc to share with the comunity. This doc is now published on BGG as a complete turn sequence.

The turn sequence docs themselves can be downloaded here:

http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/95118/turn-sequence-breakd...

There is a thread to discuss its interpretation of the rules here:

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1046030/turn-sequence-breakd...

Feedback is most welcome!
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Scott Smart

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boardgamemonster wrote:
First off, I never use boon this myself!

Then, in its continued defence (and clarification of a couple of things you've said)...

- I think it's most useful for NON-spellcasters who want something magic up their sleeves.

- You can use blessings, but they only adds an extra d4 each


Yippee!!!! a whole d4 which is a great waste of a blessing

Quote:
- It's an item not a weapon, so can either be used as an extra weapon or to give options to characters that don't have (many) weapons


NOPE!!! If you can't use a spell with it, you can't use a weapon. As stated in the original correction to my post, it clearly states For your combat check which means that that is exactly all you get to use.

Quote:
- It's rechargable if you have the Arcane skill


It's most useful for non-spellcasters you say then mention it is rechargeable. Nope, not if you're giving it to non-spellcasters it isn't.

Quote:
- Caltrops are nice but once you've used them, they're gone and you might not find any more (you can only go back to the box for basic cards if you don't have enough cards in your party to meet everyone's deck requirements)


True, but you can just decide to take the beating by rolling your strength that you're going to get with that stupid 4d4 and discard it to keep it.

Also, why in the world once you've reached BO, does everyone NOT have a magic weapon? You'd have to be incredibly unlucky not to have one.

Quote:
But enough about the Wand... we're veering off topic! If you'd like to continue this discussion please open another thread and post a link here.


Sorry, but the last thing this game needs is another thread on something covered in a previous thread on topic or not.
 
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