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Subject: Wargame or Euro? rss

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Daniel Schulz
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No reviews up yet, so thought I would ask. Is this game more wargame like, or Euro game. I was really looking forward to this, but my heart sank a little when I saw it used wooden cubes, and then I saw the map yuk

I love wargames, and solitaire games, butI really dislike euro's. Tried watching the tutorials, but after 30 minutes, gave up.
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Rob White
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Too bad you gave up. Seems like the videos would be a better way of knowing than asking other people and getting predictibly balanaced responses ("It's a card-driven wargame that borrows a bit of Eurogame parts" etc.).
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Gordon J
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I play tested the heck out of this game, and I would have to say it is a wargame/euro/civ-like game. You have chits, you have battles, but not in the typical fashion of units storming a hill and flanking your enemy. The whole premise of the game is you are defending your culture's way of life from the white intruders. You are trying to keep the Navajo from being wiped out, not just in a blood and guts kill people sense, but from the traditions that make your people unique, the more white settlers and missionaries encroach upon the land the more your people lose who they are.
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Joel Toppen
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Fwiw, the cubes are for random draws. All game pieces are counters. As you can see from my micro badges, I'm a wargamer. As for the map, well it's highly functional and is best understood when my design notes are considered: (from the play book)

The map has the appearance of a point-to-point map familiar to many gamers. Actually, it is more of an area map. Early on, I wanted to make a hybrid map that used area movement principles for the Na- vajo but point-to-point movement for the non-native enemies. After several attempts, I hit upon a different approach, one which could reflect terrain of varying levels of difficulty. The map I settled on for the final design can be alternately visualized as a circle divided up into six “pie” slices with a “bullseye” in the center. Each “slice” is a Territory and is adjacent to two other Territories as well as the center “bullseye”—Canyon de Chelly. The spaces inside each Territory, called Areas, represent segments of that area of varying difficulty of terrain. Each Territory (except the Canyon) has six such Areas. The decision to use this number was based on the desire to use a six-sided die for all die rolling in the game. Forcing the player to travel through several Areas before moving to an adjacent Terri- tory proved to be a simple way to model very complex topography and terrain. The Map Territories have been named after prominent landmarks in that region. Shiprock, for example, represents the territory east of the Chuska mountains (which run north-south along the present-day Arizona-New Mexico border); west of the Río Grande; south of the San Juan River (which runs along the present-day Colorado-New Mexico border), and north of the pine-forested Zuni Mountains.

Hope this helps!

Joel
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Daniel Schulz
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Rob in Richmond wrote:
Too bad you gave up. Seems like the videos would be a better way of knowing than asking other people and getting predictibly balanaced responses ("It's a card-driven wargame that borrows a bit of Eurogame parts" etc.).



Beg to differ, but there is value in asking on a forum - not only for me, but for others who are making this decision. If you don't have anything to add, why try to shut the conversation down? From what I've seen so far, this is more Eurogame like than wargame. How many hours of video does one need to watch? The only reason I'm still investigating is that the solitaire mechanic seems unique, and good solitaire games are VERY rare. I don't want to miss a good one (even if it's Euro like).
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Daniel Schulz
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joel_m_toppen wrote:
Fwiw, the cubes are for random draws. All game pieces are counters. As you can see from my micro badges, I'm a wargamer. As for the map, well it's highly functional and is best understood when my design notes are considered: (from the play book)

The map has the appearance of a point-to-point map familiar to many gamers. Actually, it is more of an area map. Early on, I wanted to make a hybrid map that used area movement principles for the Na- vajo but point-to-point movement for the non-native enemies. After several attempts, I hit upon a different approach, one which could reflect terrain of varying levels of difficulty. The map I settled on for the final design can be alternately visualized as a circle divided up into six “pie” slices with a “bullseye” in the center. Each “slice” is a Territory and is adjacent to two other Territories as well as the center “bullseye”—Canyon de Chelly. The spaces inside each Territory, called Areas, represent segments of that area of varying difficulty of terrain. Each Territory (except the Canyon) has six such Areas. The decision to use this number was based on the desire to use a six-sided die for all die rolling in the game. Forcing the player to travel through several Areas before moving to an adjacent Terri- tory proved to be a simple way to model very complex topography and terrain. The Map Territories have been named after prominent landmarks in that region. Shiprock, for example, represents the territory east of the Chuska mountains (which run north-south along the present-day Arizona-New Mexico border); west of the Río Grande; south of the San Juan River (which runs along the present-day Colorado-New Mexico border), and north of the pine-forested Zuni Mountains.

Hope this helps!

Joel


It does help. I'm into video 3, and see that a player can actually maneuver on the map. At first glance, it looks very much like the VPG State of Siege maps, which aren't really maps at all - more like status tracks. Not my cup of tea, but I'm much more interested in play mechanics than graphics. Maybe this map will grow on me.

Also - Joel. Videos are a great idea, but boy are they dry! Do a little editing, man. Thanks for making them, though, as they are very useful.
 
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There must have been a moment at the beginning, where we could have said no. Somehow we missed it. Well, we'll know better next time.
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On the other hand I come from a Euro background and was excited at the prospect of a Wargame/Euro hybrid type game, as I really enjoy many of those (like Wallenstein (first edition), Fire & Axe: A Viking Saga, many of Martin Wallace's games, and some would even say Dominant Species). A Wargame that borrows some Euro elements is more interesting to me than just a full-on Wargame.
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Joel Toppen
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JohnnyDollar wrote:
On the other hand I come from a Euro background and was excited at the prospect of a Wargame/Euro hybrid type game, as I really enjoy many of those (like Wallenstein (first edition), Fire & Axe: A Viking Saga, many of Martin Wallace's games, and some would even say Dominant Species). A Wargame that borrows some Euro elements is more interesting to me than just a full-on Wargame.


I really enjoy most of Wallace's war/euro games. I've gotta say that there are elements of NAVAJO WARS that were influenced from God's Playground.

Joel
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Rob White
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horrido wrote:
Rob in Richmond wrote:
Too bad you gave up. Seems like the videos would be a better way of knowing than asking other people and getting predictibly balanaced responses ("It's a card-driven wargame that borrows a bit of Eurogame parts" etc.).



Beg to differ, but there is value in asking on a forum - not only for me, but for others who are making this decision. If you don't have anything to add, why try to shut the conversation down? From what I've seen so far, this is more Eurogame like than wargame. How many hours of video does one need to watch? The only reason I'm still investigating is that the solitaire mechanic seems unique, and good solitaire games are VERY rare. I don't want to miss a good one (even if it's Euro like).


No disrespect intended Daniel. Watching the videos a long time ago gave me a very good sense of the game and I thought the same could be true for you if you'd kept watching. Better, perhaps (only perhaps), than asking people who might just give you fuzzy answers. In the end, you got Joel to respond which is pretty darn cool. And it sounds like you watched some more of the videos. Hope you make the right decision for you. I'm certainly pumped for it.
 
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Steve Carey
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Navajo Wars is a very difficult game to classify; it has procedural complexity like a wargame but many of the decision trees are euro-like.

For me, the strong theme is the main attraction.
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Adam D.
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I question (I don't know, I question) to what extend the theme was subordinated to the gods of euroness. I bought this game on the assumption I'd learn about Navajo history and maybe gain some insight by getting hands on with a simulation of it. Perhaps I imprinted "simulation" on top of it, whether deserved or not.

We'll see what arrives in the mail...
 
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Robert Fox
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TheCollector wrote:
I question (I don't know, I question) to what extend the theme was subordinated to the gods of euroness. I bought this game on the assumption I'd learn about Navajo history and maybe gain some insight by getting hands on with a simulation of it. Perhaps I imprinted "simulation" on top of it, whether deserved or not.

We'll see what arrives in the mail...


I wouldn't fret too much. The COIN series has many euro mechanics, but still teaches the history of the conflicts well.

Wargames can integrate euro mechanics while still being true to the history.
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