Josh
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Giving them the benefit of the doubt and taking them at their word why don't Cruz, Bohner et al fight the individual appropriatioms bills(you know the things that matter more than the OMG Budget) rather than playing around on stage with the debt cieling?

No 'because they don't want to!' answers please, I'd like to see some real reasoning on this one not just the usual mudslinging.
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Rich Shipley
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Right now the fight is over a continuing resolution to keep the government going for 6 weeks while they work out appropriations bills (since the fiscal year ends September 30th).

The debt ceiling fight hasn't even started yet.
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Boaty McBoatface
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rshipley wrote:
Right now the fight is over a continuing resolution to keep the government going for 6 weeks while they work out appropriations bills (since the fiscal year ends September 30th).

The debt ceiling fight hasn't even started yet.
And they have said that even if Obama compromises over this they will add more demands over the debt ceiling. This also answers the OP's question, this is not yet over, and they are going to ask for more stuff, including (I suspect) cuts.
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Paul W
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Shadrach wrote:
Giving them the benefit of the doubt and taking them at their word why don't Cruz, Bohner et al fight the individual appropriatioms bills(you know the things that matter more than the OMG Budget) rather than playing around on stage with the debt cieling?

No 'because they don't want to!' answers please, I'd like to see some real reasoning on this one not just the usual mudslinging.


I'm not sure what the strategy this time around is, but that's what they've been doing...using the debt ceiling issue to get leverage in how appropriations bills are written.
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Andy Andersen
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Koldfoot wrote:
To be clear, the republican establishment is not interested in cutting spending. Spending = power. They are no more inclined to decrease spending than a democrat.


Unfortunately you may be on to something here. A wise man (my Dad) once told me "it's easy to spend other peoples money."

Truer words were never spoken.
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Mac Mcleod
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Koldfoot wrote:
To be clear, the republican establishment is not interested in cutting spending. Spending = power. They are no more inclined to decrease spending than a democrat.


I think this was a key insight they had in the 80's.

Actually being conservative fiscally was good for the country but it was going to insure they continued to be a minority party.

Plus the whole "military industrial complex" thing Ike warned about reached critical mass.

Seriously- we should cut defense by 20%. We'd still be obscenely strong and that would go a long way towards balancing the annual budget.
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Is the government shut down thing a stalking horse for the debt ceiling?

ie by precipitating this "crisis" they can see how it plays in public opinion before taking a position on the debt ceiling "crisis".

e.g. if opinion comes down heavily on the "blame Obama and the Dems" side they can push hard on the debt ceiling. If it comes down heavily on the "what the f*** are the GOP doing?" then they can row back a bit.
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The Republicans want to roll back the ACA. They will try to do that with the CR, and then try also with the debt ceiling. They don;t really care about public opinion since it is the whackjob nutters in the party that are driving this.
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Rich Shipley
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jmilum wrote:
The Republicans want to roll back the ACA. They will try to do that with the CR, and then try also with the debt ceiling. They don;t really care about public opinion since it is the whackjob nutters in the party that are driving this.


Those wackjobs have been promising to shut down the government since 2010. They are getting what they wanted.

You can see this in the main negotiating positions they have agreed to the last few days. First it was defunding the ACA, then it was delaying it for a year, then it was just delaying the individual penalties for a year. it doesn't seem they care about what they are asking for, just that they are asking for something they won't get.
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jmilum wrote:
The Republicans want to roll back the ACA. They will try to do that with the CR, and then try also with the debt ceiling. They don;t really care about public opinion since it is the whackjob nutters in the party that are driving this.


Presumably though it would only take a few Republicans to vote the other way to put any motion through. If public opinion really came down against them I can't believe all would recklessly plow ahead and endanger their own seat? Some must be in swing states?

At the minute they lose little by this action other than to test the waters of public opinion.
 
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Some Republican moderates already tried and failed:

Quote:
Rep. Charlie Dent, R-Pennsylvania, Rep. Peter King, R-New York, and others feverishly made calls to stage what would have been effectively a revolt.

They said they were hoping there were enough GOP members like them who were fed up with the tactics of the leadership that they can find enough votes to defeat the first procedural measure, known as the rule.

That would have prevented the House GOP leadership from even bringing their plan up at all. Because the moderate Republicans failed to generate enough support, the broader GOP bill that includes anti-Obamacare provisions will now go to a final vote.

Given the makeup of the GOP caucus, the House Republican moderates needed 17 Republicans to agree to defy their leadership, and be willing to face what will undoubtedly be the wrath of the conservative grassroots.

"We have people in the conference, I believe, who'd be just as happy to have the government shutdown," King said. "They live in these narrow echochambers. They listen to themselves and their tea party friends. That keeps them going, forgetting that the rest of the country thinks we're crazy."
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Josh
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Stuff like this just goes to show you can be conservative without being a self-centered hidebound dipshit. Just like you can be a liberal without being a nihilistic countercultural slackwit. A lot of people have just forgotten how.


jmilum wrote:
Some Republican moderates already tried and failed:

Quote:
Rep. Charlie Dent, R-Pennsylvania, Rep. Peter King, R-New York, and others feverishly made calls to stage what would have been effectively a revolt.

They said they were hoping there were enough GOP members like them who were fed up with the tactics of the leadership that they can find enough votes to defeat the first procedural measure, known as the rule.

That would have prevented the House GOP leadership from even bringing their plan up at all. Because the moderate Republicans failed to generate enough support, the broader GOP bill that includes anti-Obamacare provisions will now go to a final vote.

Given the makeup of the GOP caucus, the House Republican moderates needed 17 Republicans to agree to defy their leadership, and be willing to face what will undoubtedly be the wrath of the conservative grassroots.

"We have people in the conference, I believe, who'd be just as happy to have the government shutdown," King said. "They live in these narrow echochambers. They listen to themselves and their tea party friends. That keeps them going, forgetting that the rest of the country thinks we're crazy."
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jeremy cobert
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Republicans passed the bill with everything the Democrats asked for except they added the amendment to not allow any exceptions. so the Democrats have shut down the government rather then participate in the ACA. and yet somehow the media will blame the Republicans for that.
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jeremycobert wrote:
Republicans passed the bill with everything the Democrats asked for except they added the amendment to not allow any exceptions. so the Democrats have shut down the government rather then participate in the ACA. and yet somehow the media will blame the Republicans for that.

It's amazing how wrong you are about so much.
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jmilum wrote:
It's amazing how wrong you are about so much.[/q]

if by "wrong" you mean that I have different opinions and uses fact and reason over emotion, then yes I am.

but let's get back on topic. the house has passed bill after bill after bill but Harry Reid refuses to bring them to a vote on the Senate floor. The House does its job, Harry Reid has become the bottleneck.

the Democrats have refused to remove the ACA exceptions for themselves. the Republicans have finally called their bluff.
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Rich Shipley
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jeremycobert wrote:
jmilum wrote:
It's amazing how wrong you are about so much.


if by "wrong" you mean that I have different opinions and uses fact and reason over emotion, then yes I am.


But you don't seem to be aware of any facts.

Quote:
but let's get back on topic. the house has passed bill after bill after bill but Harry Reid refuses to bring them to a vote on the Senate floor. The House does its job, Harry Reid has become the bottleneck.


He has brought them all up for a vote. They got amended and sent back.

Quote:
the Democrats have refused to remove the ACA exceptions for themselves. the Republicans have finally called their bluff.


There are no exceptions for Congress, quite the opposite. Unlike other employers, they are required to use the ACA exchanges. The point of contention is whether they can subsidize the coverage, like other employers do.
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jeremycobert wrote:
the house has passed bill after bill after bill but Harry Reid refuses to bring them to a vote on the Senate floor.

If that is one of your 'facts' then that is an example of you being wrong. The Senate has voted on the Bills sent by the House.
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jeremy cobert
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jmilum wrote:
jeremycobert wrote:
the house has passed bill after bill after bill but Harry Reid refuses to bring them to a vote on the Senate floor.

If that is one of your 'facts' then that is an example of you being wrong. The Senate has voted on the Bills sent by the House.


here is my favorite picture of the day, notice the empty chairs...
stay classy Democrats !

http://poorrichardsnews.com/post/62819742334/photo-of-the-da...
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jeremycobert wrote:
jmilum wrote:
jeremycobert wrote:
the house has passed bill after bill after bill but Harry Reid refuses to bring them to a vote on the Senate floor.

If that is one of your 'facts' then that is an example of you being wrong. The Senate has voted on the Bills sent by the House.


here is my favorite picture of the day, notice the empty chairs...
stay classy Democrats !

http://poorrichardsnews.com/post/62819742334/photo-of-the-da...

How are those 'facts' coming?
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jeremy cobert
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jmilum wrote:
But you don't seem to be aware of any facts.


you guys really need to stop getting your information from fox news or MSNBC.

When Congress passed obamacare in 2010, they were in such a hurry to pass it, they missed the part where it mandated that Congress and its staff participate in it and its insurance exchanges like all Americans who don’t have employer plans. But if they had actually read it, they would have known that the final bill omitted the very generous premium contributions the government makes to federal employees as part of the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program.

Imagine the frenzy when they discovered that they and their staffers were subject to inferior-quality health exchanges like the millions of us ordinary Americans, AND that they might also have to shell out thousands of dollars for increased premiums if they exceed the subsidy income cutoff. They make $174,000 a year. They can’t afford increased premiums that are forced on the rest of us.

So with pressure from Congress, the administration directed the Office of Personnel Management to treat Congress as special, so that the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program can continue to contribute to the health plans used by Congress and congressional staff.

The rest of us get to pay for insurance for Congress.
We can afford it more than those $174K/yr Congressional staffers… right?
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Rich Shipley
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jeremycobert wrote:
jmilum wrote:
But you don't seem to be aware of any facts.


you guys really need to stop getting your information from fox news or MSNBC.


I guess the House and Senate websites and CSPAN are too biased for you too.

Quote:
When Congress passed obamacare in 2010, they were in such a hurry to pass it, they missed the part where it mandated that Congress and its staff participate in it and its insurance exchanges like all Americans who don’t have employer plans. But if they had actually read it, they would have known that the final bill omitted the very generous premium contributions the government makes to federal employees as part of the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program.


The law required that Congress use the exchanges. I believe a Republican suggested the rule and it was added to the law, even though no Republican would vote for the final bill. The law did not change anything about employer contributions, but it didn't specify how they would work either.

Quote:
Imagine the frenzy when they discovered that they and their staffers were subject to inferior-quality health exchanges like the millions of us ordinary Americans, AND that they might also have to shell out thousands of dollars for increased premiums if they exceed the subsidy income cutoff. They make $174,000 a year. They can’t afford increased premiums that are forced on the rest of us.


Most of the rest of us have our health insurance paid for partly by employers. And no other employer has to use the exchanges.

Quote:
So with pressure from Congress, the administration directed the Office of Personnel Management to treat Congress as special, so that the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program can continue to contribute to the health plans used by Congress and congressional staff.


A decision had to be made on it, and the law didn't specify, so continuing to contribute seems reasonable. I can understand that some may disagree, but the amount of hyperbole surrounding this seems extreme.

Quote:
The rest of us get to pay for insurance for Congress.
We can afford it more than those $174K/yr Congressional staffers… right?


$174K/yr is how much a Senator makes. A chief of staff might make over $100K, but most staffers are paid much less. The average seems to be around $50K.
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jeremycobert wrote:
The rest of us get to pay for insurance for Congress.

Do you think the government wasn't providing health insurance to its employees before the ACA was passed?
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jeremycobert wrote:
jmilum wrote:
But you don't seem to be aware of any facts.


you guys really need to stop getting your information from fox news or MSNBC.

When Congress passed obamacare in 2010, they were in such a hurry to pass it, they missed the part where it mandated that Congress and its staff participate in it and its insurance exchanges like all Americans who don’t have employer plans. But if they had actually read it, they would have known that the final bill omitted the very generous premium contributions the government makes to federal employees as part of the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program.


That is, in fact, pretty much exactly the opposite of true. When Congress passed the ACA in 2010, it included an amendment that the GOP insisted on that would mandate that Congress and its staff use the exchanges and not permit them to retain their federal plan. In other words, unlike everybody else in the country whose employer provides health coverage, Congress and staffers would be required to leave their employer's plan and use the exchanges.

This was meant to be a "poison pill" to make it harder for Congress to pass the bill. There was no "Whoops, we didn't realize that was in there!"
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