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Subject: Parasite vs Djinn in Katman? rss

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Kasper Lauest
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Currently trying to put together a Katman style deck, which I may or may not decide to try out at a small tournament tomorrow (I might just end up playing Andromeda instead, that worked like a charm last time), but am struggling a bit with the influence.

First up, I think 3xDesperado and 3xDatasucker is pretty much a given. That's 12 influence points taken up already. I also like to have a Femme Fetale for problem solving. So only 2 influence points left.

I'm debating whether to use those two influence points on Djinn or Parasite.

In Djinn's advantage:
- Solves MU problems if I can draw it early.
- Can tutor for Datasuckers, so I don't get stuck with no Datasuckers on the table and/or can focus my SMC's on Atman/Femme/Deus X.
- Can host not only Datasucker, but also SMC

Against Djinn:
- Only 1 of means that I won't see it often. It seems clunky to tutor for it with SMC. I think I'd usually want to use the SMC for something else.
- Is a bit slow to use.
- Without Parasite, I probably won't run into MU troubles anyway.

In Parasite's advantage:
- Can also solve some of the problems Atman might encounter.
- Can be recurred with Clone Chips which this deck runs 3 of.
- Can be tutored with SMC so having only one isn't a big issue.

Against Parasite:
- I might start struggling for MU. Even with Desperado out, this deck only has 5 MU. That has to cover Atman, Datasucker, SMC's, Femme, Deus X and Parasite. Of course all of these cards are never gonna be in use at once, but I could easily see the deck running out of MU fast. While I could put Omni-drives or Akamatsu's into the deck, I REALLY don't like cutting too many of the other cards in this deck.

I guess one of the major problems here is that Djinn and Parasite really likes to be in the SAME deck. Djinn might be overkill without Parasite and Parasite is weaker without Djinn. This leaves another option:

Option a) Drop one of the Desperados. This frees up 3 influence points which allowa me to run both Djinn and Parasite (with still another influence point left). I REALLY like three Desperados though.

Option b) Find something else for 2 influence cost that I really want. Not really sure what that would be.

Anyone want to weigh in on this major first world problem? At the moment I think I'm leaning towards Parasite, but I'm not really sure why.
 
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Palpster
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I wouldn't take either. Single of those cards just isn't all that reliable. I'd sooner take a Stimhack for emergency purposes, or an Inside Job maybe. Then again, you don't HAVE to fill up 15 influence, why not use the two card spots for some MU cards?

Just some thoughts.
 
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Justin
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Parasite. I play it and Crypsis, and I don't have MU problems. I would have Rototurret problems, if not for Parasite.
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Eric Rampson
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3x Doppelganger + 3x Datasucker + 2x Parasite + 1x Djinn

Try it out. Doppelganger is great for this build, forgoing a bit of early economy for mid- and late-game awesomeness.
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Kasper Lauest
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Scud-O wrote:
3x Doppelganger + 3x Datasucker + 2x Parasite + 1x Djinn

Try it out. Doppelganger is great for this build, forgoing a bit of early economy for mid- and late-game awesomeness.

Hmmm...sounds interesting. I have never actually played a game with Doppelganger. Might be worth trying out.
 
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Grish Noren
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Personal pref is parasite. Djinn finds you stuff, but smc can already do that; 5 mu is all you need in the deck and parasite solves problems. Djinn, imo, isn't worth it. I'd take an omni drive over djinn in that deck any day.
 
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Anthony Goodwin
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BlueSwan wrote:
Scud-O wrote:
3x Doppelganger + 3x Datasucker + 2x Parasite + 1x Djinn

Try it out. Doppelganger is great for this build, forgoing a bit of early economy for mid- and late-game awesomeness.

Hmmm...sounds interesting. I have never actually played a game with Doppelganger. Might be worth trying out.


Doppelganger is slightly less efficient than desperado, but it is twice as fun as desperado lol. You have to at least try it once. With datasuckers and mediums, you can do serious damage and force time walks all the time. But you have to build up money every now and then.
 
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Gregory Pettigrew
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BlueSwan wrote:
Scud-O wrote:
3x Doppelganger + 3x Datasucker + 2x Parasite + 1x Djinn

Try it out. Doppelganger is great for this build, forgoing a bit of early economy for mid- and late-game awesomeness.

Hmmm...sounds interesting. I have never actually played a game with Doppelganger. Might be worth trying out.


Back when Doppelganger first came out, the consensus was "This card isn't nearly as good as Desperado, unless you're playing with Datasuckers or something, then it's amazing". I haven't seen anyone else running with it yet, and I'm ok with that.
 
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Bryan Blumklotz
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Frankly with all the tutoring and recursion in a typical "Katman" deck a single Parasite and Femme Fatale can do some serious damage. I can punch a hole through a server (great for those repeat runs).

I find that 2 copies of Desperado are sufficient since I draw heavy anyway. Professional Contacts is a awesome pairing.

Here is my Kate deck I took into a tournament yesterday... Be aware that it is super vulnerable to The Weyland Consortium tag & bag antics (a scored Project Atlas = Death).

Deck Created with CardGameDB.com Android: Netrunner Deck Builder

Identity:
Kate "Mac" McCaffrey: Digital Tinker (Core)


Total Cards: (45)

Event: (13)
1x Escher (Creation and Control)
2x Infiltration (Core)
3x Sure Gamble (Core)
2x Scavenge (Creation and Control)
3x Test Run (Cyber Exodus)
2x Modded (Core)

Hardware: (11)
3x Clone Chip (Creation and Control)
3x Akamatsu Mem Chip (Core)
3x R&D Interface (Future Proof)
2x Desperado (Core) ■■■

Program: (13)
3x Datasucker (Core) ■
3x Atman (Creation and Control)
3x Self-modifying Code (Creation and Control)
1x Parasite (Core) ■■
1x Femme Fatale (Core) ■
1x Deus X (A Study in Static)
1x Imp (What Lies Ahead) ■■■

Resource: (8)
2x Kati Jones (Humanity's Shadow)
3x Daily Casts (Creation and Control)
3x Professional Contacts (Creation and Control)

Influence Values Totals -
Anarch: 8
Criminal: 7
Shaper: 62

 
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Matthew Guze
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Saracenus wrote:
Frankly with all the tutoring and recursion in a typical "Katman" deck a single Parasite and Femme Fatale can do some serious damage. I can punch a hole through a server (great for those repeat runs).

I find that 2 copies of Desperado are sufficient since I draw heavy anyway. Professional Contacts is a awesome pairing.

Here is my Kate deck I took into a tournament yesterday... Be aware that it is super vulnerable to The Weyland Consortium tag & bag antics (a scored Project Atlas = Death).

(snip decklist)


My Atman decklist is pretty close to what you have, but among other minor changes for personal taste, the biggest difference is -3 Akamatsu, +2 Plascrete. It makes MU a bit more of an issue, but I've never found it to be that much of a problem, and I'd rather have small memory problems than fearing Scorched Earth every turn. Desperado gives one, and I rarely use all three Atmans and only try to bring them out if it's either a last resort or there's a more efficient solution. You'd be surprised as to what you can get into without them.
 
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David Jackman
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Using Djinn to tutor parasites is pretty powerful.

I am currently running:

3x Parasite
3x Datasucker
1x Djinn
1x Femme Fatale
1x Crescentus
1x Hostage

and I love it. I am considering dropping a parasite for a nerve agent - not quite sure about that yet.

With lots of parasite, zero and 1 strength ice can pretty much always be killed on sight. the occasional annoying tollbooth or Hadrians can be Femmed or Crescentus'ed. and all of the midrange ice is handled by atman.

The hostage helps to ensure you get your economy out (Kati and Professional Contacts).
 
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Josh Schaener
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Keep parasite, you should be killing problem ice and recurring it a lot or at least as necessary in order to keep at least one central server locked open for datasucker-token-gaining runs.

 
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Kasper Lauest
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I went with parasite and won the tournament. It was a four round Swiss tournament with 13 participants. My Katman deck won every round. 10-2 against NBN Making News first round. 10-6 against HB etf second round. 10-3 against Weyland org third round and 10-0 against HB etf fourth round. Not bad at all. I only got to actually use Parasite once all night, though. Never used Femme or Deus X even once. Never used Plascrete either, mainly because i never drew one when playing Weyland. Pro Contacts was a star player of course, it helped me even more than Desperado.

My NBN making news deck won 10-0 first round against Gabe, 10-0 second round against Kit, lost 10-4 third round against Andromeda and won 10-6 against Noise fourth round. Star player outside of Astroscript was Trick Of Light, which scored me at least a handful agendas during the night despite the fact that my deck only runs two of them. I only managed to actually rez a SanSan once, I think, but that one scored me a couple of agendas. No I also rezzed one in my loss to Andromeda to prevent Account Siphon. I got hit by four Siphons that game (he was playing same old thing) and that was the only game where I really missed the couple of Psychographics I used to run in NBN.
 
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Seth M
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inactivemember wrote:
Keep parasite, you should be killing problem ice and recurring it a lot or at least as necessary in order to keep at least one central server locked open for datasucker-token-gaining runs.



I don't find Desperado crucial for anything but the memory (your economy as Katman is 100% fine without it) and just use Akamatsus for that. This allows you to fit in 3 Parasites, which reduces the pressure on your Clone Chips (since you don't NEED to use them to get more Parasite hits, ticking up with Professional Contacts will find you more Parasites as well) and lets you use them more liberally. It also leaves you with a bunch of spare influence for Stimhacks or powerful 1-of programs (Faerie and Imp, or Medium if that's your style I suppose)
 
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Alex Rockwell
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1 Parasite is the BEST card in this entire deck. This deck has a great ability to abuse that single parasite, tutoring for it, killing the ice instantly with datasuckers, and recurring that parasite.

You dont need more than 1 of them (though its fine to include more, its a great card, and you could choose more of them instead of a desperado or something), but you NEED at least one, because the parasite is really all about being tutored-for and recurred.

The Parasite can be used to eliminate some strengths of ice, while the Atmans deal with other values.


Not putting in that 1 Parasite is a huge mistake.

Did the Gencon deck have a Parasite? No. It still won, because this deck is very good, the player of the deck was very good, and people werent properly spacing out their ice strengths. (Reading about him crushing HB decks over and over who had like five rezzed Str4 ice in play at once with an Atman4, you can see how little people were preparing for the Atman).

Is the Gencon deck better if you add a Parasite? HECK YEAH. Its especially important if your opponent spaces out their ice strengths to deal with atman.
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Alex Rockwell
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etherial wrote:

Back when Doppelganger first came out, the consensus was "This card isn't nearly as good as Desperado, unless you're playing with Datasuckers or something, then it's amazing". I haven't seen anyone else running with it yet, and I'm ok with that.


The "Datasucker makes Doppelganger better than Desperado" idea was just wrong. Pretty much the only card that might make Doppelganger better in some cases is Notoriety.

Which is not to say Doppelganger is bad. Doppelganger is the 2nd best Console in the game, but its so similar to the best console (Desperado) that there isnt really reason to play it. If Doppelganger was a Shaper card, then all of these Katman decks would just play 3 Doppelganger, because its great, and have more influence to spend on other things.
 
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Joshua Gardner
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Alexfrog wrote:
Doppelganger is the 2nd best Console in the game, but its so similar to the best console (Desperado) that there isnt really reason to play it.


Kit appreciates the -2 influence that comes from switching 2x Desperado to 2x Doppelganger. Why, that influence could be spent on something like a Parasite even.
 
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Alex Rockwell
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bullseyetm wrote:
Alexfrog wrote:
Doppelganger is the 2nd best Console in the game, but its so similar to the best console (Desperado) that there isnt really reason to play it.


Kit appreciates the -2 influence that comes from switching 2x Desperado to 2x Doppelganger. Why, that influence could be spent on something like a Parasite even.


Yeah, shaper decks might be the place where Doppelganger makes sense. Saving 1 influence each might be worth it, and you can play Notoriety in faction as well to increase the benefit.

You do lose out on economy though. In situations where you dont want to make two runs, its worse.

 
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James 3
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i thought this thread was about the 3rd parasite vs the 1st djinn, which is a valid question, since they both cost 2 influence and the deck may want extra MU. id say the 2st djinn does more work in that case than the 3rd parasite, and can find 1 and 2...

but parasite in a katman deck IS essential. wow, that card solves problems others cant, and clone chip is sick with it.

i also think a single imp solves issues other cards cant (operation-based combos in particular) and really try and make it fit too. 1st copy is potentially better than the 3rd copy of a console as far as influence goes, and can be found with the djinn.
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Alex Rockwell
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flamejuggler wrote:
i thought this thread was about the 3rd parasite vs the 1st djinn, which is a valid question, since they both cost 2 influence and the deck may want extra MU. id say the 2st djinn does more work in that case than the 3rd parasite, and can find 1 and 2...

but parasite in a katman deck IS essential. wow, that card solves problems others cant, and clone chip is sick with it.

i also think a single imp solves issues other cards cant (operation-based combos in particular) and really try and make it fit too. 1st copy is potentially better than the 3rd copy of a console as far as influence goes, and can be found with the djinn.


Yeah you clearly, clearly need the 1st parasite. After that, more parasites are nice, Djinn is nice, Imp is nice, Desperado is nice...
Lots of options.

 
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