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Subject: Low Ice Meta NBN - Something a little different rss

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Grish Noren
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I've been making references to this deck for a while now, but I thought I'd finally put up and post it as I'm having really good success with it in the current meta. This is a META deck: meta, meta, meta. It will not work everywhere or against everything, but it is extremely solid against the current favorites. It is extremely weak against Wizard. My win rate in my local meta is 4/5. The game I lost was when I first piloted it; this deck takes practice. On OCTGN i'm 2/3 (Mulli'd into a 3 agenda hand with 3 more right on top of R&D against noise. Just a bad set up).

[NBN The World Is Yours]

Deck Created with CardGameDB.com Android: Netrunner Deck Builder

Identity:
NBN: The World Is Yours* (Future Proof)


Total Cards: (44)

Agenda: (9)
Private Security Force (Core) x1
Project Beale (Future Proof) x3
AstroScript Pilot Program (Core) x3
Restructured Datapool (What Lies Ahead) x1
Breaking News (Core) x1

Asset: (7)
Ghost Branch (Core) x2
Marked Accounts (Cyber Exodus) x3
PAD Campaign (Core) x2

ICE: (8)
Enigma (Core) x1
Wall of Static (Core) x1
Ice Wall (Core) x3 ■
Data Raven (Core) x1
Tollbooth (Core) x2

Operation: (17)
Psychographics (Core) x2
Trick of Light (Trace Amount) x3 ■■■
Midseason Replacements (Future Proof) x1
Hedge Fund (Core) x3
Anonymous Tip (Core) x2
SEA Source (Core) x2
Closed Accounts (Core) x2
Big Brother (Trace Amount) x2

Upgrade: (3)
SanSan City Grid (Core) x3

Total Agenda Points: 18

Influence Values Totals -
Haas-Bioroid: 0
Jinteki: 9
NBN: 40
The Weyland Consortium: 3

:!: Primer :!:

:: Goal ::

Score via fast advance, bankrupting the runner early or midgame to ensure a solid ending for you. Trick of Light is your main engine. Tagging is your second. Use this to inconvenience the runner and put them off their game. Against shaper you'll be trashing resources. Against criminal, you'll be building up their tags and bankrupting them with closed accounts to turn psychographics into a fast advance card.

:!: ICE :!:

There are a total of 8 ice in this deck, let the runner access stuff. That's what you want. Your goal is to keep them from finding their icebreakers because they aren't interested. Then later, when you throw something down it actually will be an inconvenience that wins you the game. Your goal is to keep them busy. Your goal is just to stall. Your goal is to keep them broke. You are winning though what I call attrition-advance.

Where do you play ice? R&D and HQ as is appropriate. An early game ice wall is best on HQ or R&D depending on whether you think they are running parasites. HQ if they are because R&D is what they are most interested in. Do not ice remotes. Just don't bother. You don't have enough of it for it to be effective where you need it to be if you do that.

:!: Scoring :!:

You will almost always score out of hand unless you think you can bluff them.

Trick of Light - You only have 5 TOL targets in the deck, but you should see one or two of them. Ice wall is your favorite, but ghost branch has double utility. In all honesty, I'm always TOL'ing off of ice wall. Ghost branch is usually the card that make tags stick; but its there for redundancy.

AstroScript Pilot - You know this one, but this is your primary TOL target. Do not use the counter until you are at end game or you know that using it will put you in a winning position, perhaps by finishing off a restructured data pool.

Psychographics - Maybe you will use this, maybe you won't. It depends. If you get to big brother your opponent, there's a pretty good chance they won't waste an entire turn removing the tags, and this becomes your best fast advance card, being able to be a trick of light or full advance. There is a single midseasons in the deck, but its very expensive. I've yet to over-advance beal for a win, but I'm sure it'll happen if I play this deck long enough. This card is a safety valve that is usually played to advance agenda 3 or 4. It also scares the runner into removing tags if they've been letting them stick.

SanSan City Grid - You all know how this card works. In this deck it is your worst fast advance card, only because the others are such all stars. That said, it is still good. Putting it on the table can help enable a runner bankruptcy or help seal the game after a bankruptcy. It really helps if you've been astro-script starved but get one late game, creating a damned if you do-damned if you don't situation for the runner. This card is not to be protected. You want the runner to have successful runs; if they trash this by paying for it, you are nothing other than happy... usually.

Anonymous Tip - Against good decks you'll get to a point where they have an R&D lock on you. It will happen, and it will suck, but you should be very close to match point. When that happens, this card is the only card in your deck that will win you the game short of a bankruptcy/new-ice counter attack.

Breaking News - Score it when you get it unless you are in a position to hit the runner with tags and you think it'll shut their game down. I hate fast advancing this card, but I might put it down to enable a midseasons/big brother by letting it sit a turn. You let so much sit that eventually they become so focused on R&D they don't watch you elsewhere, especially because they are broke.

:!: Going for Broke :!:

Economy. We all know how important it is to have this. That's why we stuff our runner decks full of the stuff. In this deck, Marked Accounts and Pad Campaign are your drip. But there's another side to your economy, you're trying to devastate your opponent's. If they trash your economy, they'll be poor enough to start loading them up with tags off of sea source or something else. Play out econ assets early and often. Turn your clicks into credits on marked accounts. Seriously 1 click -> 3 credits: awesome. You don't have ice to play, so you might as well do something other than twiddle your fingers.

When you do get tired of twiddling your fingers, you lay out the pain: sea source, big brother, closed accounts; sea source, big brother, kill prof-con. Etc. You want to put the runner into a position where they either clear tags or enable psychographics. If they don't clear, you'll molest them with closed accounts and put down ice like Tollboth to help keep them poor so that accesses are limited. In the late game this is crucial if you haven't found your next agenda.

Once they are broke, your trickle econ will start building up keeping you up around 10 credits. This is when you know San-San is an option. This is the point at which trickle doesn't get trashed. It is the point at which you are most dangerous because the runner never set up their rig; and they didn't get lucky in the early rounds.

:: TLDR ::

Waste time early: engima, ice wall, ghost branch, sea source, score an agenda off of TOL

Mid Game: Get your second agenda and bankrupt the runner however you can

Late game: Seal with psychographics/TOL/SanSan off of astroscripts.
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Drake Villareal
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Just a thought, but a low ICE deck might benefit from a Levy University. Especially since Ice Wall and Ghost Branch are your only 2 advancables.

With no Jackson Howard, I see Sahasrara Noise doing some serious work against you. If your ice walls get milled, or your sansans, or agendas, they're gone, man.

I can't help but think Jackson Howard and a few Popup windows would help you out.

I'm also confused on the Agenda Spread, could you explain it to me? I've never run anything similar to that.
 
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Grish Noren
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OddCrow19 wrote:
Just a thought, but a low ICE deck might benefit from a Levy University. Especially since Ice Wall and Ghost Branch are your only 2 advancables.


There's no space for Levy because I honestly wouldn't lose any of the operations for a trashable asset.

Quote:
With no Jackson Howard, I see Sahasrara Noise doing some serious work against you. If your ice walls get milled, or your sansans, or agendas, they're gone, man.


This is why its a meta call; Anarch is the strongest identity against this, but everyone is currently playing shaper and criminal in mine, so its fine. That said, I haven't had access to Jackson Howard until this week. I may replace an anonymous tip with a Jackson Howard just to be able to use it.

Quote:
I can't help but think Jackson Howard and a few Popup windows would help you out.


Popup windows aren't worth it. You aren't rezzing a lot of ice, so econ isn't usually a problem. Popups also don't keep anyone out. The ice I do run at least stops people the first time (neglecting atman builds). In other builds, especially my jinteki ones, pop up window is great. Its just not necessary here, its also very weak to parasite, so why bother? Its a meta decision, mostly.

Quote:
I'm also confused on the Agenda Spread, could you explain it to me? I've never run anything similar to that.


A majority of the agendas are 3/2's which you'll fast advance for points. The rest are there because we need to get up to 18 to have a legal deck, but we don't want density to be too high to enable random checks to have much power. This is the lowest density deck that can be run when the plan is to advance agendas without protecting them. Most of the time, you'll score the 3/2's. Occasionally you'll be confronted with scoring the 5/3, which is doable but you won't want to have to do that. Breaking news is usually one of the 4 your manage to score. Since everything else is worth more than 2 points, pidgeon hole tells us this will do as much work as the other agendas in getting us to 7 as everything else will mostly do too much work. The Private Security Force is just tech in that scares people into keeping a full hand and staying tag free.

Fast advance Beale & AstroScript. Deal with the others as needed. You can fast advance private security force on a sanSan if it doesn't get trashed, you can do the same for restructured data pool if you have to.

There's another deck that is similar to this one but takes the other road. It runs all 5/3's in NBN. It's very strong, but the list isn't something I can post because its not mine. Either way, my opinion right now is that NBN is the best thing you could be running in the current meta because runners rely so much on resources for their economy.
 
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Doug Law
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I think this style of deck is pretty strong in the existing meta. I have been playing something pretty similar lately and it does pretty well. I use only one Anonymous Tip and two Jackson Howard. The draw is about as good, the trash ability is game saving, and the idea behind forcing the runner to spend money to trash him follows into the concept of keeping the runner poor (just like the Pads and Marked Accounts). I prefer running 40 cards exactly and flying through the draws, so that I have needed him against Noise a couple of times just to avoid decking.

I disagree about Pop Up Window. You're right that you don't need the economy, but charging the runner 1 credit every time they want to run a central when they are already poor is pretty strong.

I don't know how well the Ghost Branch works for you, but I took out all advance-able traps from mine. With this little ice, you will probably be putting all your assets in naked remotes, and since you are scoring almost everything out of hand, runners tend not to run anything with any advancement counters on it.

My friend is working on an iceless version. I think he is too attached to the idea (trying to be too cute rather than just winning) but even in those builds he is having decent success. This is definately an archetype that can win right now.
 
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dlaw008 wrote:
I think this style of deck is pretty strong in the existing meta. I have been playing something pretty similar lately and it does pretty well. I use only one Anonymous Tip and two Jackson Howard. The draw is about as good, the trash ability is game saving, and the idea behind forcing the runner to spend money to trash him follows into the concept of keeping the runner poor (just like the Pads and Marked Accounts). I prefer running 40 cards exactly and flying through the draws, so that I have needed him against Noise a couple of times just to avoid decking.


I am planning on trying j howard out at some point; Not sure when. Its a valid point.

Quote:
I disagree about Pop Up Window. You're right that you don't need the economy, but charging the runner 1 credit every time they want to run a central when they are already poor is pretty strong.


The other ice already do that and parasite takes longer on them. I do love pop up window in other builds; just haven't felt the need in this one.

Quote:
I don't know how well the Ghost Branch works for you, but I took out all advance-able traps from mine. With this little ice, you will probably be putting all your assets in naked remotes, and since you are scoring almost everything out of hand, runners tend not to run anything with any advancement counters on it.


Ghost branch does its work. People run it in my meta. When they stop, it'll just give me another way to score. Either TOL'ing or faking a an agenda into its place.

Quote:
My friend is working on an iceless version.


If it could be done, it'd be done here. My guess is splash in some HB instead of TOLs; and go psycho beale for the win. You know they are are going to score, so let them and use it to win. Adonis, marked, pad, server diagnostics. If they don't trash you're rich, if they do they're poor. Then you bring out replacements on the turn after they score and psycho for the win; maybe SE instead. Not exactly a poor build though.
 
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Alex Rockwell
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The thing about these super low ice decks is that if you put in more ice, they get better.


For example:

* Popup in place of Marked Accounts, will actually improve both economy and defense (and make you better vs Whizzard). With that few ice, you are going to have un-iced servers. Replacing that siutaiton with a popup on that server is just better. Youll get money off it being run and probably drain the runner a bit. Compared to Marked Acocunts, thats an upgrade in power.

Also, drip economy like Marked and Pad is quite weak in a rush strategy. When your goal is to end the game FAST, you dont get much long term use out of a $1/ turn card. Its much better to get more burst economy.

people playing all these drip economy cards in rushy NBN decks is kindof a mistake. The decks that benefit most from those are slow, controlling decks. Big ice HB for example. Alternately, Jinteki deck,s because those games tend to go on a while as the runner cant multi-access without risking death so they attack slower, and the Jinteki player drains his own money and slows the runner down with Snares and other net damage.

NBN does a lot better with things like Beanstalk Royalties.


* More cheap things like Enigma/Wall of Static is useful to help you rush agendas 'naturally' (without fast advance cards), which is cheaper and faster. Fast advancing is safer but more expensive. You can actually speed up your game by needing to fast advance less often early on. Its cheaper to guard your agenda with an enigma than to trick of light it. (Yes its riskier - but you dont only put agendas behind the enigma. You put bluff cards too, traps, bernice mai, sansan, etc).

* Breaking News is really strong. Scoring three 2 pointers and a breaking News is way easier than four 2 pointers. It also allows you to play Big Brother or econ denial cards like Freelancer and slow the runner down. These kinds of rush decks really want 2-3 breaking news, because you want to score one in order to make it so you only need to score three 2-pointers.
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Grish Noren
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Alexfrog wrote:
The thing about these super low ice decks is that if you put in more ice, they get better.


I'm not sure about this. On its face, this makes sense, but I'm not sure ice is as valuable an investment in this sort of deck. I'll talk about that more in the next paragraph.

Quote:
* Popup in place of Marked Accounts, will actually improve both economy and defense (and make you better vs Whizzard). With that few ice, you are going to have un-iced servers. Replacing that siutaiton with a popup on that server is just better. Youll get money off it being run and probably drain the runner a bit. Compared to Marked Acocunts, thats an upgrade in power.


This deck has a weakness to anarch trashing (Demo Run/Imp/Wizard/and even Gabe to an extant who has an easy way to get creds back). Pop up window is certainly better against these decks than marked accounts; but its worse against the kati decks where I need them to spend money to be traceable. They need to run pop-up 5 times to be drained as much as them trashing Marked is going to cost, barring those earlier exceptions. And if they don't then my economy tends to get boosted into a range where I can deal with them.

I'm not going to dismiss pop-up out of hand though. I'll do some testing wed to see how it does; I just don't feel like it'll do that much better. Then again, I was pretty amazed at how well it did in Jinteki, so I might just be wrong here.

Quote:
Also, drip economy like Marked and Pad is quite weak in a rush strategy. When your goal is to end the game FAST, you dont get much long term use out of a $1/ turn card. Its much better to get more burst economy.


I don't know. I find the drip to be very helpful. It keeps me in the range of what I want to do. TOL often absorbs some credits, but not many. Sea source usually benefits as well. And TOL is taking up the slots that that burst economy would take; and don't mistake me, this deck without TOL is not this deck anymore. I'd have to completely change the way I play.

Quote:
people playing all these drip economy cards in rushy NBN decks is kindof a mistake.


I disagree, but only because I'm winning with it.

Quote:
NBN does a lot better with things like Beanstalk Royalties.


Which I don't have space for. I'd need to go up to Making News, which would make astro and other cards worth a lot less as the dilution would go up.

Quote:
* More cheap things like Enigma/Wall of Static is useful to help you rush agendas 'naturally' (without fast advance cards), which is cheaper and faster. Fast advancing is safer but more expensive. You can actually speed up your game by needing to fast advance less often early on. Its cheaper to guard your agenda with an enigma than to trick of light it. (Yes its riskier - but you dont only put agendas behind the enigma. You put bluff cards too, traps, bernice mai, sansan, etc).


And at this point I'm no longer fighting their economy. Again, you're suggesting a different strategy; a strategy that works for you certainly, but mine is working very very well for me right now. In my meta, relying too much on things that yog and corroder eat for breakfast pretty much means game over. It is very hard to let an agenda sit a round, which is why I've moved to fast advance. If I believe I have the opportunity to sneak out a 3/2 then I'll try it, but my attempts to do that with a deck closer to the build you are suggesting usually failed. And it may just be my play style/tells ruining the game for me, but I was having far less success.

Quote:
Breaking News is really strong.


I agree. I can't disagree with you on this. I played several games where having breaking news helped me seal the tags with big brother. This said, I often do see my breaking news in games. And the singleton fills out this position. Before, when I ran more, I found that I'd draw 2 of them in the game and be right back where I was before; Needing to score 3 two pointers after getting 2 points.

I'm not throwing your advice out; One day I will be playing a different style of deck, and I will use much of what you said. Right now, this is really working for me, so I'm going to do it for at least another week. If it wasn't working I'd be all over trying new things, but it is working, as surprising as that is.
 
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Lluluien
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Alexfrog wrote:
NBN does a lot better with things like Beanstalk Royalties.


I'm going to stop you right there. You qualified the faction as "Rushy NBN" before when you said that drip economy didn't work there, and I can see an argument there (though the drain on the Runner from trashing them can be equally valuable).

To say this for the faction as a whole and unqualified for "rushy" decks though is patently wrong. There are lots of NBN decks which the drip economy suits very well. As a matter of fact, one of the ways that people screw up PSF Lock is not making sure they have 1-2 pieces of drip economy online while they're doing it, so they actually get a benefit out of spending their whole turn pushing the Runners turn.
 
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Steven Tu
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I don't agree!

Alexfrog wrote:
Also, drip economy like Marked and Pad is quite weak in a rush strategy. When your goal is to end the game FAST, you dont get much long term use out of a $1/ turn card. Its much better to get more burst economy.


BECAUSE you're playing a short game, that $5 + run to the runner economy is going to help you score something. If you played for the long game, the runner economy is going to catch back up anyway. Drip econ is there to keep the runner poor, not you rich.

Quote:
people playing all these drip economy cards in rushy NBN decks is kindof a mistake. The decks that benefit most from those are slow, controlling decks. Big ice HB for example. Alternately, Jinteki deck,s because those games tend to go on a while as the runner cant multi-access without risking death so they attack slower, and the Jinteki player drains his own money and slows the runner down with Snares and other net damage.


The big, long game draining decks will also want the drip econ, but they don't want them to be trashed, so they play a little bit of ICE on them, or Encryption Protocol, or Jinteki RP. Same cards, different use.

Quote:
NBN does a lot better with things like Beanstalk Royalties.


Noone said to not have fast econ IF it's needed. Whether it is or isn't depends on the meta and the deck. It's not exclusively Beanstalk or drip or go home.

Just my 2c
 
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Tuism wrote:
The big, long game draining decks will also want the drip econ, but they don't want them to be trashed, so they play a little bit of ICE on them, or Encryption Protocol, or Jinteki RP. Same cards, different use.


I see it as the decision on whether or not you favor PAD Campaign vs Marked Accounts; the former will typically draw the trash hate, the latter typically will pay its dividends. Your objection still holds - there are two reasons why these cards are good, and at least one of them still applies to a rush deck.
 
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I'm not sure this qualifies as a rush deck. It's FA, which differs. When I think rush, I think Weyland, one impregnable server (before the suite is out) Atlas-Atlas-Government Contracts or something.

In this NBN deck you will probably never ice a remote, ever. You MUST keep them out of HQ, because you are likely to be holding a handful of agendas. RnD ice is variable, depending on how many agendas you've pulled out already because you are drawing hot and heavy. Once you get to the economic tipping point you just score every turn until you win. This deck won't shutout the runner, it would have fared poorly in the old tournament scoring system, but it definately can win.

You really just need a couple of good stopping ice, a little tag punishment and lots of draw. The drip econ is plenty if they leave it alone, but frankly you'd rather they trash it, and make themselves poor.
 
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lluluien wrote:
Tuism wrote:
The big, long game draining decks will also want the drip econ, but they don't want them to be trashed, so they play a little bit of ICE on them, or Encryption Protocol, or Jinteki RP. Same cards, different use.


I see it as the decision on whether or not you favor PAD Campaign vs Marked Accounts; the former will typically draw the trash hate, the latter typically will pay its dividends. Your objection still holds - there are two reasons why these cards are good, and at least one of them still applies to a rush deck.


I don't know about how you play runner, but if I have the cash I will ALWAYS trash them - Pad or Marked - unless I'm not working on my last points and it's clear that the corp has no more ICE to rez (money for them won't hurt me more in the very short term).

Thus I hold them both in the same regard, really
 
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Quote:
Quote:


people playing all these drip economy cards in rushy NBN decks is kindof a mistake.


I disagree, but only because I'm winning with it.



I think that what happening is that, rather than pressuring hard on your undefended/weakly defended centrals (since there is almost no ice in the deck), people are instead spending their time and effort killing your drip economy.

So you are winning because you are opening up a way for your opponent to make a mistake, and they are falling for it and making the mistake.



What happens when the opponent ignores the pads and just works on dropping Medium/R&D interface, parasiting away any ice that you put on R&D, and pounding it?





Additionally, I think that Pad Campaign is not the best way to drain the runner. Bernice Mai behind a Wall of Static and Popup Window is a better way to drain the runner. You place a neverending stream of crap into that server: SanSan, Bernice, Melange, agendas, etc. The Bernice will tax them at some point when they run it, no matter what (or put them into permatag mode, which also lets you tax them).

This also opens up another way to ruin the runner's economy. The placement can be a Breaking News, and then you follow with Freelancer on Kati + Daily Casts (or whatever), or you Closed Accounts them. It denies them harder that getting them to kill a Pad.

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I don't think it's fair to say that the centrals are undefended here. Rather they are the only thing defended. He's probably got rezzed or rezzable ice three deep on both rnd and hq, or 2 and 4 deep, including tollbooths and advanced barriers. Sure there is only eight ice, but it all goes to those 2 servers, and either he's scooping 4 or more credits a turn or the runner is down 20 credits.

In a deck like this, he's probably holding six agendas in hand and has like six cards remaining in rnd. There should be a tower in front of hq, probably a red herrings in the root, and a pool of credits like Brewster's Millions.

Obviously, that is how the deck is designed, but everything doesn't always go perfectly. It's weak to Whizzard and Anarch generally, to some extant. But it is about as good as anything to Katman, and decent to Criminal.

In my opinion, this is a totally valid archetype for NBN and probably the best way to play TWIY.
 
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dlaw008 wrote:
I don't think it's fair to say that the centrals are undefended here. Rather they are the only thing defended. He's probably got rezzed or rezzable ice three deep on both rnd and hq, or 2 and 4 deep, including tollbooths and advanced barriers. Sure there is only eight ice, but it all goes to those 2 servers, and either he's scooping 4 or more credits a turn or the runner is down 20 credits.


With only 8 ice how are you going to even draw that much to get that much ice onto HQ and R&D? Also remember, most runners are going to be parasiting away some of your ice. Its not enough to simply draw a couple ice and put it on R&D, you have to also draw and place replacement ice during the game as well. I struggle to find enough ice in my 14 ice TWIY deck with plenty of card draw (which is super-rushy). Yes, I'm placing 1-2 ice on a remote, but I have a lot more. I dont see how an 8 ice deck without Jackson Howard can hope to keep any ice on R&D against Katman. They'll blow up everything you place there with recurring parasites.
 
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So last night the meta shifted a lot; my corp still won a game, but I did fall to an R&D dig. Mostly because only 3 of my agendas were in the first 25 cards, which was odd. I also was off on the bankrupt by about a turn which ended up hurting me. I still had plays I could have tried instead of what I did; but it convinced me its time to try H. Jackson in the build and go full in on anonymous tip, which my build was only running 2 of.

Will try again before giving up on the deck. Great success with my runner and splitting with my corp left me up a bit.
 
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