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Wars of the Roses: Lancaster vs. York» Forums » General

Subject: Bribable? rss

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Bob Shurig
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Springfield
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Wars of the Roses: Lancaster vs. York appears to be a fun game to play, and I was set to buy it, but I am not convinced it is historical. There is an awful lot of English history that went down during the War of the Roses, generally accepted to be from 1455-1485; and it can be especially confusing since it's history can be conveyed from various sources. I have a few questions re: some of the nobles portrayed in this game, as I am mystified as to some who are bribable?

Tudor - Wouldn't this be Henry Tudor (Henry VII)? If so, he was a king, and from the House of Lancaster. Why would he be bribable?

Neville - There are two Neville's in the game. I assume Richard, the Earl of Warwick (and the Kingmaker) is the "10"; and that the "8" probably is his father, the Earl of Salisbury - or it could also be Richard's brother John. The Captain of Calais plays an important part in this game, and the Earl of Warwick was the Captain of Calais for 13 years over 2 stints (3 and 10) and, as the Capt. of Calais, he led troops from there to battle in England.

Beaufort - They were alternative heirs (cousins) from the House of Lancaster; therefore, I don't think they would have been bribed either?

Plantagenet - Both the House of Lancaster and the House of York descended from the Plantagenet line, although more from the House of York. So, who specifically, does Plantagenet represent in this game?

Herbert and Talbot - Both are closer to the House of York than to the House of Lancaster.

Also, why can't one's loyalty be switched prior to a battle (which happened on occasion), instead of after the battle? I could also see the losing side switching after the battle, which happened as well.

Why can all of the Bishops be bribed? I can see the possibility of one or two, but every single Bishop in the game?

The same goes for ship captains - how is it that every single one of them can be bribed? And, more importantly, why don't they transport troops, and have a presence?

These are some of the questions I have about the history of the War of the Roses as portrayed in this game. The game components appear to be genuinely outstanding, and I believe that the designer Peter Hawes designed an extremely fun (yet chaotic) game to be played. I think I will still buy this game, because of the lavish artwork of the components and the detail that Mr. Hawes has put into it; although I will play it in a different manner, and not as the rules prescribe. The bottom line is that I think I can have a lot of fun with Wars of the Roses: Lancaster vs York.
 
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Mike Smith
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I think you are judging it by the wrong criteria. Its not intended to be a strictly historical simulation. If you must have that then its not for you. There is enough Wars of the Roses colour in it, but don't expect historical fidelity. Its mighty fun though.
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Pedro Pereira
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I fully agree with Mike on this one. I play games for how much fun they provide me. If you are looking for simulations... you should stick to war games perhaps.

I believe that one of the reasons this game was devised this way is because it is supposed to give a feel of how things were during the wars of the roses. War, intrigue, bribery, shady commerce, etc. all was part of it. Obviously not everybody would be involved (in everything), but that's not the point here. I'm sure the designer just really enjoyed the idea behind the history and tried to make a game of it.

Another important aspect in this game is power shifting. Influence is constantly shifting from one player to another (which again reflects the historic nature the game is based on), since in this game you never play with the full deck (kinda in both ways...), you are always playing this game with different strategies. If only some cards would be bribeable and they wouldn't com into play one or another game, you would miss out on one of the main ideas: power shifting.

So, as Mike said... if you're looking for a simulation, you are looking at the wrong game, and this you should have realized as soon as you looked at the box and read that it plays in 90 - 120 minutes
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Bob Shurig
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Thank you for your comments. Given the theme and the 3 hour playing time listed here on BGG (I never saw the game box that you said states 90-120 minutes), I thought this was somewhat of a wargame. Wargames, in general, normally have fairly accurate historical content. I feel that I will buy this game soon, however, as I am looking forward to playing it.
 
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Joe Kong
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It is a game after all.

gamer99 wrote:
Wargames, in general, normally have fairly accurate historical content.


My 2¢. If you script everything, then it will be 100% accurate. You don't even have to play it. It will run on its own.

 
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Mike Dommett
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Pedrator wrote:
I fully agree with Mike on this one. I play games for how much fun they provide me.


joekong_hk wrote:
It is a game after all.


I don't think Bob is asking for anything unreasonable here - it is entirely possible to skew things very much in the direction of "accuracy" whilst still creating a fun and playable game. Take High Frontier, for example. I've never quite understood the whole work vs fun thing that people seem to identify - presumably because I take a lot of "fun" from games that require "work" .

I agree that, Wars of the Roses is not a sim, but I believe it is a superb game. I love the aesthetics of the theme, with the large map of England and Wales, the named nobles and settlements and details like the Captain of Calais. Primarily, however, I love the mechanics, with the simultaneous planning and action point system (money). The game is very chaotic and the bribery element forces you to be prepared to lose control of anything at any time - something which surprises new players and, I feel, can be quite a barrier to entry. However, when you get your head around this aspect of the game, and learn that walling yourself into a corner is not an option, you may agree with me that it is one of the best games ever created .
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Joe Kong
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I just wonder why people often think wargame is realistic.

Having playing wargames since the 80s, I enjoy wargames a lot. Nonetheless, in the context of realism, I believe we just use our imagination to make it real. Just get over the issue of realism & chrome. Have fun in gaming! meeple

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Bob Shurig
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Joe - I do want my wargames to have historical content and realism, and to be a good historical simulation of the events. I fully agree with you about chrome, as I do not like games which include chrome simply for the sake of it, and I much prefer that they wouldn't have chrome at all. The bottom line, as I have stated before, is to have fun in gaming. I think we both agree there also - Bob
 
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Jack Smith
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It's not Wargame, it is a fairly light Euro with area control and blind bidding/bluff. It is a great game but it is not pretending to be an accurate representation of history, mainly as its mechanics are too simple for that and would serve no purpose for its scale and complexity. We really enjoy the game anyway as we do not expect much historical depth.

It has great artwork which is very evocative of the period.

If we want more historical accuracy and detail we play Crown of Roses
 
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