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Xander Fulton
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The important thing to remember is that we shouldn't question our security state - it's there for our protection, and would never be abused by the human components of it.

Never.

ninja

EDIT: Okay, okay, maybe a few times. But just a few times! And we caught them, and punished them, and all that. Honest! You can trust us! When have we ever misled you, before?? Totally not a widespread problem, here - our humans are the best humans, totally unlike the rest of you who would totally use this kind of power for peeping on your neighbors...
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William Boykin
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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

-Juvenal, The Satires.

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Boaty McBoatface
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I don't know abut the USA but in the UK any government officer who works in any department that deals with peoples data is told that accessing it (or using government systems)for personal espionage is an abuse and agaisnt the rules. Of course you will always get people who break the rules, but that applies to private companies as much as government.

As I have said before you would be scared at the amount of data about you that can be brought from private companies, do you think that their employees are any more trustworthy?

By the way it's Hardly unquestioned if they were questioned about their actions. I realize that your thread title is emotive rhetoric, but it is still a gross misrepresentation of the situation (and it goes back to before the unlimited and unquestioned powers of surveillance created by the Patriot act).
 
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Xander Fulton
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slatersteven wrote:
(and it goes back to before the unlimited and unquestioned powers of surveillance created by the Patriot act).


That's specifically what we are taking a swipe at, here.

That's a TERRIBLE act, should never have been passed, and has been predictably abused horribly.

Because, duh. Of course it was going to be abused.

slatersteven wrote:
I don't know abut the USA but in the UK any government officer who works in any department that deals with peoples data is told that accessing it (or using government systems)for personal espionage is an abuse and agaisnt the rules. Of course you will always get people who break the rules, but that applies to private companies as much as government.


Naturally. It's totally against various laws and policies to do that, even here. Like jaywalking and speeding, too - that's why nobody does any of those things.

Well, okay, sometimes people do - but they all get caught, because laws and all that! So, nothing to worry about...just go back to sleep. No, don't worry about that camera in the corner of your room - nobody is even looking through it right now, probably! And if they are, it's just for your protection...

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Boaty McBoatface
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XanderF wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
(and it goes back to before the unlimited and unquestioned powers of surveillance created by the Patriot act).


That's specifically what we are taking a swipe at, here.

That's a TERRIBLE act, should never have been passed, and has been predictably abused horribly.

Because, duh. Of course it was going to be abused.

slatersteven wrote:
I don't know abut the USA but in the UK any government officer who works in any department that deals with peoples data is told that accessing it (or using government systems)for personal espionage is an abuse and agaisnt the rules. Of course you will always get people who break the rules, but that applies to private companies as much as government.


Naturally. It's totally against various laws and policies to do that, even here. Like jaywalking and speeding, too - that's why nobody does any of those things.

Well, okay, sometimes people do - but they all get caught, because laws and all that! So, nothing to worry about...just go back to sleep. No, don't worry about that camera in the corner of your room - nobody is even looking through it right now, probably! And if they are, it's just for your protection...

:sauron:
Forgive me but saying that there are equally (if not greater) threats to our data security then the government is not saying that this sort of thing is OK. All this is is an argument for great regulation of data (and privacy ) protection, from corporate and governmental agencies. If you ban governments from watching us they will just buy the same information from companies that do, with far less oversight to their actions (news international anyone?.
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Xander Fulton
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slatersteven wrote:
Forgive me but saying that there are equally (if not greater) threats to our data security then the government is not saying that this sort of thing is OK. All this is is an argument for great regulation of data (and privacy ) protection, from corporate and governmental agencies. If you ban governments from watching us they will just buy the same information from companies that do, with far less oversight to their actions (news international anyone?.


The difference, in this case, is that corporations cannot (legally, anyway) hide activities from the government. As a result, a corporation using inappropriately gained information for personal gain will - as soon as this is discovered - be shut down post-haste BY said government. Because, ultimately, the corporation is answerable to the government.

The government, on the other hand - when it wants to do 'secret things' - is answerable to nobody. It's only THEORETICALLY answerable to the population, generally, but our ability to influence the creature we've created is more to nudge it in one direction or the other. Fundamental or structural changes are impossible, and 'secret' activities it executes cannot be meaningfully controlled.

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?", indeed.
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Boaty McBoatface
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XanderF wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Forgive me but saying that there are equally (if not greater) threats to our data security then the government is not saying that this sort of thing is OK. All this is is an argument for great regulation of data (and privacy ) protection, from corporate and governmental agencies. If you ban governments from watching us they will just buy the same information from companies that do, with far less oversight to their actions (news international anyone?.


The difference, in this case, is that corporations cannot (legally, anyway) hide activities from the government. As a result, a corporation using inappropriately gained information for personal gain will - as soon as this is discovered - be shut down post-haste BY said government. Because, ultimately, the corporation is answerable to the government.

The government, on the other hand - when it wants to do 'secret things' - is answerable to nobody. It's only THEORETICALLY answerable to the population, generally, but our ability to influence the creature we've created is more to nudge it in one direction or the other. Fundamental or structural changes are impossible, and 'secret' activities it executes cannot be meaningfully controlled.

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?", indeed.
I thought we were talking about employees, not organizations.
 
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Xander Fulton
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slatersteven wrote:
XanderF wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Forgive me but saying that there are equally (if not greater) threats to our data security then the government is not saying that this sort of thing is OK. All this is is an argument for great regulation of data (and privacy ) protection, from corporate and governmental agencies. If you ban governments from watching us they will just buy the same information from companies that do, with far less oversight to their actions (news international anyone?.


The difference, in this case, is that corporations cannot (legally, anyway) hide activities from the government. As a result, a corporation using inappropriately gained information for personal gain will - as soon as this is discovered - be shut down post-haste BY said government. Because, ultimately, the corporation is answerable to the government.

The government, on the other hand - when it wants to do 'secret things' - is answerable to nobody. It's only THEORETICALLY answerable to the population, generally, but our ability to influence the creature we've created is more to nudge it in one direction or the other. Fundamental or structural changes are impossible, and 'secret' activities it executes cannot be meaningfully controlled.

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?", indeed.
I thought we were talking about employees, not organizations.


This is a distinction without a difference.

Some employees within an organization can be relied to (at some percentage) take advantage of the information or capabilities they have at their disposal, to their own advantage.

The larger the organization, the more sweeping its mandate and powers, and the less answerable the organization is to another body...the larger the possibility is for these individual abuses - regardless of how idealistic the original organizational intent.
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Boaty McBoatface
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XanderF wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
XanderF wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Forgive me but saying that there are equally (if not greater) threats to our data security then the government is not saying that this sort of thing is OK. All this is is an argument for great regulation of data (and privacy ) protection, from corporate and governmental agencies. If you ban governments from watching us they will just buy the same information from companies that do, with far less oversight to their actions (news international anyone?.


The difference, in this case, is that corporations cannot (legally, anyway) hide activities from the government. As a result, a corporation using inappropriately gained information for personal gain will - as soon as this is discovered - be shut down post-haste BY said government. Because, ultimately, the corporation is answerable to the government.

The government, on the other hand - when it wants to do 'secret things' - is answerable to nobody. It's only THEORETICALLY answerable to the population, generally, but our ability to influence the creature we've created is more to nudge it in one direction or the other. Fundamental or structural changes are impossible, and 'secret' activities it executes cannot be meaningfully controlled.

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?", indeed.
I thought we were talking about employees, not organizations.


This is a distinction without a difference.

Some employees within an organization can be relied to (at some percentage) take advantage of the information or capabilities they have at their disposal, to their own advantage.

The larger the organization, the more sweeping its mandate and powers, and the less answerable the organization is to another body...the larger the possibility is for these individual abuses - regardless of how idealistic the original organizational intent.
Really? so how long was phone hacking going on at News International before it was found out (we we still don't know the full story of that either), and this was an illegal act on the part of the companies, not employees taking advantage of the information or capabilities they have at their disposal, to their own advantage. Organizations like News International have set themselves up as guardians of civil liberty whilst at the same time (criminally) breaching our privacy for personal gain and advantage (at a corporate level). They have spied on and caused suffering to far more people then the NSA (at least the NSA does not pretend to be murder victims, or erase the mobile phones of victims of crime), "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" indeed.
 
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Koldfoot wrote:
That is propoganda. The gov't only collects the data. They look at it ONLY after getting a court order.

Really? Are you familiar with the Patriot Act?
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Amended - they only tell you they looked at it after getting a court order.
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whac3 wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
That is propoganda. The gov't only collects the data. They look at it ONLY after getting a court order.

Really? Are you familiar with the Patriot Act?


Moshe? Really? I mean, even on the internet I could hear the sarcasm in Koldy's "voice".
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I am back to my plan of not doing anything of which I am ashamed. (And it helps, because I don't care if folks think that I am weird.)

Has anyone here ever really thought if the government wanted to know something about you that you could stop them? Admittedly, this makes it a little easier. But I think it's a matter of less effort, not of less privacy.
 
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DWTripp wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
That is propoganda. The gov't only collects the data. They look at it ONLY after getting a court order.

Really? Are you familiar with the Patriot Act?


Moshe? Really? I mean, even on the internet I could hear the sarcasm in Koldy's "voice".


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Moshe Callen
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DWTripp wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
That is propoganda. The gov't only collects the data. They look at it ONLY after getting a court order.

Really? Are you familiar with the Patriot Act?


Moshe? Really? I mean, even on the internet I could hear the sarcasm in Koldy's "voice".

I should have too. Off day yesterday from not enough sleep.
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If you suspect you wife is sleeping with a terrorist you have to do what you have to do.
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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Jythier wrote:
Amended - they only tell you they looked at it after getting a court order.
And until the patriot act did this sort of shit anyway, they just could not use it in court (but then spying on your girlfriend would not end up in court anyway. If the NSA really are as evil as is begin claimed they do not need laws allowing them to do so, any more then Nixon needed laws.
 
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