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The Combined Rulebook seems to assume that Mutiny Cards should be part of the 'base game' using all the expansions (i.e. not optional like say, the Ionian Nebula).

If I wanted to not use the Mutiny Deck (at least for the first few games), what would I have to do?

I *think* I would have to:
a) use the original Colonial One map (though I guess I could still use the reverse of the overlay if it gets blown up though) and
b) use the Pegasus Treachery Cards instead of the Daybreak ones and
c) remove the "You are the Mutineer" card from the Loyalty deck.

Would that cover everywhere that Mutiny deck stuff shows up?

And do you think it would be advisable to not play with the Mutiny deck for the first few games? I'm figuring it might add too much complication for the 'base game' initially (given that we have the Pegasus board, Cylon Fleet board and rules, etc), but if it doesn't make things too much more difficult then I'm game to try it. I just don't want to overload my group with too much stuff here at first.
 
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Mindy G
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Mutiny is a core mechanic of Daybreak. If you don't want to play it, then don't play Daybreak.
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Yeah it's not optional. It's either in or no Daybreak.

You could take it out, but you'd also have to take out a lot of Crisis cards, the new Treachery cards, some of the new characters, the new Colonial One, etc, etc...
 
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If you are worried about overloading your group, consider leaving entire expansions out.
 
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schmloof wrote:
You could take it out, but you'd also have to take out a lot of Crisis cards, the new Treachery cards, some of the new characters, the new Colonial One, etc, etc...


Well, yes. That's the point of asking the question. Also, this is the Variants board - if we can't ask about this sort of thing here without being yelled down by people who think the rules should stay exactly as they are, then where are we supposed to ask about such things?

Though I'm not really convinced that it's a "core mechanic" since it's part of an expansion, and the game can be played perfectly well without it.

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When treachery card says "draw mutiny card" - don't do it (or draw new treachery instead)
When crisis says "draw mutiny card" - draw treachery.
Do not use new Zarek.

For now it's just a theory, but I'm going to check this "variant" soon.
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I do not guarantee this list to be comprehensive. These things reference Mutiny:

Mutineer Loyalty Card
Colonial One Overlay
Lee Adama (Alternate)
Tom Zarek (Alternate)
Make an Ally (Cylon Leader Motive)

Skill Cards:
Force Their Hand (Politics)
Bait (Treachery)
Dradis Contact (Treachery)
Personal Vices (Treachery)
Exploit Weakness (Treachery)

Crisis Cards:
A Desperate Pact
Consult the Hybrid
Dangerous Plots
Earth in Ruins
Insubordinate Crew
Rallying Support
Reprisal
Requisition for Demetrius
Secret Meetings

If you remove Mutiny, you will have to remove Treachery, use Pegasus Treachery, or make a custom Treachery Deck.

9 of the 30 Daybreak Crisis Cards use Mutiny.
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Thorag wrote:
When treachery card says "draw mutiny card" - don't do it (or draw new treachery instead)
When crisis says "draw mutiny card" - draw treachery.
Do not use new Zarek.

For now it's just a theory, but I'm going to check this "variant" soon.


Daybreak Treachery is tied to Mutiny, so you would have to replace Daybreak Treachery.

I would argue that Pegasus Treachery is more complicated than Mutiny, so I would not consider that a good replacement.
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I am typically a "purist", and would not do this. However, I've had a game where we used Pegasus skill cards with Daybreak, nothing more from Pegasus. Plenty of folks use the automatic handoff of Loyalty cards, Peg-style ICs in games that don't use the Pegasus set itself, or use characters from other sets without all the other required core set material. And then there are the tweaks to NC, IN, and Earth.


The crisis cards aren't that big of a deal. For Treachery, just think up of an alternative to everything....
Anything that has you draw a Mutiny, discard a skill card instead. Some cases like alt-Zarek, probably simpler to just leave him out completely. That Motive card, either sub it for 2 Treachery in hand, or just omit it.

Arcadious wrote:
If you are worried about overloading your group, consider leaving entire expansions out.
Well, the problem's always been that player's are desperate/VERY EAGER to try out new expansions, or portions of new expansions, but don't want to have to play through the "mandatory 2 to 10 games with just base game" before they're "allowed" to add them. Remember, since BSG takes longer, it can be next month or next year before expansions get added in.
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ackmondual wrote:
Arcadious wrote:
If you are worried about overloading your group, consider leaving entire expansions out.
Well, the problem's always been that player's are desperate/VERY EAGER to try out new expansions, or portions of new expansions, but don't want to have to play through the "mandatory 2 to 10 games with just base game" before they're "allowed" to add them. Remember, since BSG takes longer, it can be next month or next year before expansions get added in.


I was actually thinking that a better solution would be to use Daybreak, but leave out Pegasus and/or Exodus.
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Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks everyone!
 
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As stated in the Daybreak rules some parts of the expansion are mandatory. The point of the Combined Rulebook is to collect all the expansion rules into one coherent set of rules.

If you want to add bits and pieces of different expansions you might be better off using the original rulebooks.

That said it would be interesting to hear which parts of Daybreak (and the other expansions) you want to combine.
 
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If you really play the FIRST game, then use only the base game with the cylon fleet board (and CAG, CAG chooses crisis cards, possibly destinations and skill cards from Exodus), regardless of how clever the players are picking up rules.

You an add everything else for the second game.

The mutiny cards are a very small addition to everything else you are adding in Daybreak (especially with the Earth objective). Their mechanics are the same as for Quorum: each card has an Action:, so very easy. (Going into the brig is quite easy too. :-) ) There is really in my mind no reason not to include them in a game with other Daybreak stuff.
 
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a1bert wrote:
The mutiny cards are a very small addition to everything else you are adding in Daybreak (especially with the Earth objective). Their mechanics are the same as for Quorum: each card has an Action:, so very easy. (Going into the brig is quite easy too. :-) ) There is really in my mind no reason not to include them in a game with other Daybreak stuff.
AFAIK, some folks who are more conservative in this manner have seem to stated that to a newbie who's new to the entire series, ANY extra addition makes the game more complex for them and should be avoided. Even if it's not hard to learn what it does, it's still something they need to learn how to incorporate strategy-wise.

Although I've disagreed with them, I've definitely ran into some folks who just didn't want to bother with ANY EXPANSION (and sometimes were lukewarm about base game BSG in the first place :\)
 
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ackmondual wrote:
to a newbie who's new to the entire series, ANY extra addition makes the game more complex for them and should be avoided.


That's why I suggested always playing the base game (maybe with CFB) if there are any newbies in the game. Thus the issue of Mutiny goes away because you won't have any Daybreak stuff.

If you still fly to Kobol when you add Daybreak, you are adding treachery and mutiny (and assault raptor) and a few new skill check abilities as new game mechanisms. I still think mutiny and treachery go hand in hand, but of course nothing prevents you from adding treachery without mutiny.

If you want to fly to Earth and want to just drop Mutiny because everything added is too complicated, .. well, perhaps you are trying to bite more than you can swallow. Dropping mutiny will not prevent the players from feeling overwhelmed.
 
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ackmondual wrote:
a1bert wrote:
The mutiny cards are a very small addition to everything else you are adding in Daybreak (especially with the Earth objective). Their mechanics are the same as for Quorum: each card has an Action:, so very easy. (Going into the brig is quite easy too. :-) ) There is really in my mind no reason not to include them in a game with other Daybreak stuff.
AFAIK, some folks who are more conservative in this manner have seem to stated that to a newbie who's new to the entire series, ANY extra addition makes the game more complex for them and should be avoided. Even if it's not hard to learn what it does, it's still something they need to learn how to incorporate strategy-wise.

Although I've disagreed with them, I've definitely ran into some folks who just didn't want to bother with ANY EXPANSION (and sometimes were lukewarm about base game BSG in the first place :\)


Different people learn games more easily in different ways - I'm one of those who can pick up 90% of the game just by reading the rulebook - or by being given a concise verbal explanation at the start. Other people can't assimilate as much at once, and do better if only the most important bits are explained to start with, and complications are added as the game progresses. Others only learn by actually playing the game. And so on.

And then there are differences in how complicated a game someone can grok. For some people, even the base game of BSG is just too much to follow; for others, a game with every expansion is fine, provided they're allowed to learn the game in their own way.

There are two extreme approaches to introducing a new player to BSG, each with advantages and disadvantages:

A) Throw them in at the deep end - include all the modules and options that you normally play with, and make up for the complexity by providing a lot more explanation as you go.

B) Reset to just the core base game, and, once they've mastered that, introduce something new, then, when they've mastered that, add something else, and so on until you reach the full game.

The advantages of A) are that they know exactly what there is to learn, and, once they get it, they've got it - there's nothing to unlearn, nothing to add, no need to adjust strategies to account for a new element - it's all or nothing.

The advantages of B) are that they have less to learn at any given point, and can pick things up at their own rate - once they grasp the basics, they can move on to the rest.

The disadvantages of B) are that every variation has a different balance and different strategies, so, while the rules and mechanics they learn are (mostly) going to continue to apply, their strategies are always going to be wrong. Also, if you have even a moderate player turnover, you'll keep resetting to basics and never get to play the full game. And, it can be discouraging for a newish player to feel that they constantly have "and another thing" to learn.

The disadvantages of A) are that it is all-or-nothing, and you risk overwhelming a new player and putting them off when a gentler approach would have got you a new fan - if you have a low rate of turnover, or have difficulty recruiting players, then you might not want to take the "sink-or-swim" approach in case they sink...

I play at a largish games club, so there's usually a fair bit of turnover, and a higher proportion of "gamers" rather than "friends-and-family", so I tend to favour A) with a lot of explanation during the game.
 
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It's kinda too late for me to just 'play the base game', not without a fair bit of work since I've already merged all the sets together and separated out the optional bits and the obsolete parts.

I was just wondering how possible it would be to leave out the Mutiny parts, but I guess it's not too big a stretch to include those really. I'll see how it goes anyway.
 
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If I wanted to use the Mutiny cards but not the Mutineer, what's the best thing to replace the Mutineer card with instead? A "You are Not a Cylon" card? Or should I just not replace it with anything else at all?
 
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Sympathizer (base), Sympathetic Cylon (Pegasus), Cylon Leader, and Mutineer all try to solve the same problem of having a "half cylon" in a game with an even number of players. Sympathetic Cylon wouldn't work in Daybreak without some tweaking, but you could use the Sympathizer.

From the table in the Daybreak rules, remove the Mutineer and one You Are Not A Cylon card, and replace them with the Sympathizer. (Only in setups where you'd use the Mutineer, of course.)
 
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EDG_ wrote:
If I wanted to use the Mutiny cards but not the Mutineer, what's the best thing to replace the Mutineer card with instead? A "You are Not a Cylon" card? Or should I just not replace it with anything else at all?


If you are not using the Mutineer, I would recommend the official No Sympathiser variant:

http://fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/Battlestar_Galacti...
 
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In the end it wasn't much more effort to include Mutiny stuff. Once I saw it in action it made more sense, and the Mutineer didn't show up in our game anyway because it was only 3 players.
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