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Napoleon: The Waterloo Campaign, 1815» Forums » Rules

Subject: Two terrain questions rss

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Peter Hutchinson
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1. The woods terrain marker refers to infantry only. The rules refer to cavalry having to stop upon entry. I assumed the marker is wrong? I also assume you can set up cavalry in the woods?

2. For the farm and hilltop terrain types I assume when you set up, units can be placed in/on those terrain features from the outset and do not have to make a separate battle move action to enter them after the battle proper starts?

Thanks in anticipation.
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Lars Backstrom
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1. The rules do not say that cavalry cannot set up in woods, so they should be able to do it. Remember that cavalry has two battle moves. The rule means that when cavalry moves into a woods it cannot make a second move.
2. There is nothing in the rules that say that a player cannot do their original set-up in a farm or on a hill. You could argue that it would be quite a bit ahistorical if they couldn't! cf. the British dispositions at Waterloo.

I hope that this is of help
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C Sandifer
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Jury wrote:

1. The woods terrain marker refers to infantry only. The rules refer to cavalry having to stop upon entry. I assumed the marker is wrong? I also assume you can set up cavalry in the woods?


I took the "infantry only" text on the sticker to mean that only infantry blocks can be initially deployed in a woods area.

In other words, cavalry cannot be deployed in woods terrain, but can move into woods terrain once the battle begins (and must stop when doing so).

But I could be wrong...

Edit:

I just emailed Columbia about this rules issue. I'll report back when I receive the official response.
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C Sandifer
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I just heard back from Tom Dalgliesh at Columbia. His response to #1:

The issue here is what to do when a player has NO infantry, only cavalry, but draws Woods terrain. Can he deploy and fight with cavalry in those woods or not, or face certain ROUT? Our initial call was "Infantry Only" as reflected in the stickers. Very late in the rules process, we allowed Cavalry in the woods with a fire and move penalty. As the rules stand, players can deploy cavalry in woods, or move there, fighting at F1.

However, we now regret that late change and recommend "Infantry Only" in woods. That will likely be the rule in a future 4.1.


[bold emphasis added by me]

So for now cavalry can deploy in woods terrain, but this may change in the future.
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Mark Kwasny
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Jury wrote:

2. For the farm and hilltop terrain types I assume when you set up, units can be placed in/on those terrain features from the outset and do not have to make a separate battle move action to enter them after the battle proper starts?

Thanks in anticipation.


I asked Tom that other question and here is his answer:

Yes, you can deploy in the terrain, shown by placing the terrain immediately behind the occupying block.
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Seth Owen
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wkover wrote:
I just heard back from Tom Dalgliesh at Columbia. His response to #1:

The issue here is what to do when a player has NO infantry, only cavalry, but draws Woods terrain. Can he deploy and fight with cavalry in those woods or not, or face certain ROUT? Our initial call was "Infantry Only" as reflected in the stickers. Very late in the rules process, we allowed Cavalry in the woods with a fire and move penalty. As the rules stand, players can deploy cavalry in woods, or move there, fighting at F1.

However, we now regret that late change and recommend "Infantry Only" in woods. That will likely be the rule in a future 4.1.


[bold emphasis added by me]

So for now cavalry can deploy in woods terrain, but this may change in the future.


This is an interesting regret. The lesson here is that pure cavalry corps are likely to be a bad idea except for skirmishing.
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Peter Hutchinson
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Excellent.

Thank you all, and Tom Dalgliesh, for your prompt and helpful responses.

At this stage I think I prefer the current state of play, with the cavalry allowed to enter (but stop) and set up in the woods, rather than the infantry only option.

This is a game that rewards repeat play with a complexity behind the simplicity that really appeals. I wish I had more opportunity to play it. Bother.
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Neil Whyman
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I'm a bit perplexed. The commander of a purely cavalry force surely would not accept battle on ground that would cause his immeditate defeat. I'd suggest that the woods terrain should be redrawn in such circumstances.
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Lars Backstrom
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nwhyman wrote:
I'm a bit perplexed. The commander of a purely cavalry force sure would not accept battle on ground that would cause his immeditate defeat. I'd suggest that the woods terrain should be redrawn in such circumstances.


I do not think that the rule is that crippling. It also shows the weakness of not having a combined arms force.
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D Bryant
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[/q] I do not think that the rule is that crippling. It also shows the weakness of not having a combined arms force.[/q]

Well, that reasoning is fine in principle, but (I think) falls apart when we consider that the French player is forced to start the game with a non-combined arms force -- his calvary force that starts way over on his right flank. Is that force supposed to plod along at the pace of the inf and arty blocks that start there with it, all to avoid facing a dreaded woods terrain draw in a battle? If so, then what was the point of massing all that cavalry in one formation for the French player????

I would encourage Mr. Dagliesh to NOT change the rule for a version 4.1 ... wouldn't the effects of prohibiting cavalry in woods be crippling to the French player's use of the "mobile force" the game setup gives him?

:-)
 
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Jim O'Neill (Established 1949)
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wkover wrote:
...However, we now regret that late change and recommend "Infantry Only" in woods. That will likely be the rule in a future 4.1.
This is excellent news. Cavalry Corps did not fight on their own during the Napoleonic wars, they always had some form of infantry support. I use the INFANTRY ONLY set up for woods and it stops marauding Cavalry Corps getting away with ahistorical moves.

Regards,


Jim

Est. 1949

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Gustavo
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Resurrecting this thread...

Assuming that the original intent was to not allow cavalry to enter woods, would that apply to leaders as well? It is obviously quite different to have a single mounted unit in woods than a whole corps, so I wonder if leaders should be allowed in woods to support infantry or not.
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Jim O'Neill (Established 1949)
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gmsa84 wrote:
Resurrecting this thread...

Assuming that the original intent was to not allow cavalry to enter woods, would that apply to leaders as well? It is obviously quite different to have a single mounted unit in woods than a whole corps, so I wonder if leaders should be allowed in woods to support infantry or not.

Gustavo,

In my opinion, Leaders would be allowed in woods as they are not truly a fighting unit.

Regards,


Jim

Est. 1949

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louiethetoad

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Cavalry can be in and fight in Woods
According to the Rules of Version 4.0 Page 4. Section 6.21 Battle Terrain
I Quote:

WOODS: Infantry are normal. Cavalry fight at F1(no shock) and must stop when they enter woods. Artillery cannot deploy, enter or fire into woods.

Based on the rules it is obvious that cavalry CAN be in woods since when in woods they fight at F1. Plus they must stop when they enter. 'When they enter' means they have entered the woods and then must stop. The rules DO NOT say cannot enter.

I think somewhere in the discussion above the rule for Artillery got mixed up with the rule for Cavalry.
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C Sandifer
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louiethetoad wrote:
According to the Rules of Version 4.0...


The issue is that the phrase "Infantry Only" is printed on the Forest terrain blocks. The rules don't mention this mysterious phrase, which is where the initial confusion came from.
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louiethetoad

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wkover wrote:
louiethetoad wrote:
According to the Rules of Version 4.0...


The issue is that the phrase "Infantry Only" is printed on the Forest terrain blocks. The rules don't mention this mysterious phrase, which is where the initial confusion came from.


By 'mysterious phrase' I am thinking you mean 'erroneous or unfortunate'. I think the statement in the Rules overrides the two words on the block.
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Minot
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oneilljgf wrote:
wkover wrote:
...However, we now regret that late change and recommend "Infantry Only" in woods. That will likely be the rule in a future 4.1.
This is excellent news. Cavalry Corps did not fight on their own during the Napoleonic wars, they always had some form of infantry support. I use the INFANTRY ONLY set up for woods and it stops marauding Cavalry Corps getting away with ahistorical moves.

Regards,


Jim

Est. 1949



That is not strictly true. It was not usual for cavalry to fight on its own (especially against a combined infantry/cavalry opponent), but it did happen from time to time.
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