Christopher Pitts
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I'm still on the fence about this game, and I think my last main hesitation is in wondering if the scenarios all play out the same. Do they all follow the format of shutting down locations until you corner the big bad and then beat him?

I know the cards will change every time and I like the idea of the campaign style deck building, but I think I'd prefer some variety in mission goals like other story driven, campaign games have.
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Richard
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Unfortunately, they're not that different. Some of those in Burnt Offerings have a bit of flavor but I do think this is the weakest area of the game for me.

The nice thing is, they *could* vary this a lot if they choose. Hopefully, they'll chose to do so before long. When I compare the quests to that in the starter set of Lord of the Rings Card Game, it makes me sad for what could have been.

That said, it's not as bad as I first thought when it hit me they were 90% the same. If you go into it knowing that mostly you are closing locations in order to track down the villain with a bit of location variety then it's not bad and still entertaining for the popcorn adventure luck game this is. Just don't expect to actually have great memories of hunting through spider lairs, getting kidnapped, or hunting for Golem like one might when playing something like the Lord of the Rings game.
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They've already said that at least one scenario in each pack will have a different theme. In the starter pack, there's an adventure with no villain, which breaks the standard mold. I'll be curious to see whatever variations they come up with in the future packs.

Also, even with the standard theme, things do become different as you face tougher challenges later on. For instance, in the early scenarios, you never have to face a second combat on your turn after the first one, unless you go seeking it out. In the later scenarios, you might have to fight a henchman, then immediately fight a summoned critter to close the location, or overcome two combat checks to beat the villain. So for example, the possibility of facing two combats this turn might stop the wizard from exploring when he only has one combat spell in hand. So in that way, there are some strategic decisions that vary a little when you get to the tougher adventures - it's not just the same stuff, but with higher numbers.

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Scott Bender
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A lot of times the difference is in the special rules for the location, even if the objectives are the same. My favorites so far? First is the eerily deserted Farmhouse where instead of discarding an ally you bury them. (Hey, has anyone seen Bob? He was standing next to that book case a minute ago.) My next favorite is the teeming, crowded Waterfront where characters take -1 to each die in attacks that use weapons. You also have to discard a card if you're there when the location closes. (Man, am I glad to get out of there. Hey, where's my wallet?!)
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Richard
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Yes, some of the locations have nice tweaks to the rules -- more so than the actual scenarios.
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Guillaume Pages
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I think some players are binging on this game and come out saying that there is no replayability or the scenarios are all the same.

In the base set, there are 3 basic adventures and 5 scenarios. If we played 1 scenario a week (which is what many RPG groups do, they tend to meet once a week), then I doubt the game would feel repetitive even though it might be in its mechanic. Not only that, it would take 8 weeks to finish, and hold and behold, just in time for the new adventure deck.

However, players who binge on the game, playing scenarios after scenarios miss out on the more subtle aspect of the game and the pleasure that you get from waiting to play your next game and think about how your player is going to grow.

It is very similar to people watching whole seasons of tv shows in a weekend. Many tv producers have stated that the shows are supposed to be watched with a gap in between, for the tension to mount every week. Watching 10 episodes in 1 day means that you miss out on the journey of the character on TV.

I think it is very similar with PACG. I believe PAIZO did not intend for players to play through the first scenario box Burnt offerings over 1 play session.
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Nathaniel GOUSSET
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My weekly RPG scenario usually last 2 or 3 sessions 4 to 5 hours long each.

A PAGC scenario last about one hour.

Orange and Apple, they have nothing common. PAGC is more like my Torchlight 2 computer gaming session, except TL2 have more variety so Pathfinder is more akin to grinding Diablo III Act 2.
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Mike Ostman
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They are all generally the same. But here is the thing, it doesn't matter. The fun part of this game is gaining loot and building your character. If you want a game that provides drastically different win scenarios from one adventure to another, this game is probably not for you. This is more about character progression.
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Matt Evans
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I find it odd that there are criticisms with this game's scenarios being mostly (mechanically) the same.

If you take a look at some of the most popular cooperative games right now, you could say the same thing for a majority of them. Here's a quick list of very popular cooperative games that are basically the same objective every game.

Pandemic - Cure all the diseases by collecting 4-5 cards of the same color and playing them in the appropriate city.

Ghost Stories- Move around the board exorcising ghosts and eventually defeat the incarnation(s) of Wu-Feng.

Sentinels of the Multiverse...Play cards to defeat the villain by reducing it's hit points to zero.

Arkham Horror - Move around the board collecting gear, defeating monsters and closing gates before the ancient one awakens.

Forbidden Desert
- Move around the board to collect all the ship parts to escape the desert before anyone dies.

Now let's look at Pathfinder... Move around to various locations collecting loot and defeating monsters to close locations and defeat the villain.

With those examples I can't really see why this is such a large complaint. I basically think of it as a standard cooperative game, with additional customization through gear and RPG elements allowing for character progression. The additional bonus is that it'll continue to grow over the next year so it'll be a long time before things get stale.

The game is not perfect but it's really well designed and packs a lot of replay value in the main box alone. Calling it repetitive because the scenarios don't change up the core game mechanics is probably a bit unfair. I've had the game for over a month and played 8 games without even getting to the 2nd Burnt Offerings scenario. It's very likely that you'll want to reply scenarios multiple times to try them with different mixes of characters or go for some loot to get a little stronger.
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Christopher Pitts
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mattamd wrote:
I find it odd that there are criticisms with this game's scenarios being mostly (mechanically) the same.

If you take a look at some of the most popular cooperative games right now, you could say the same thing for a majority of them. Here's a quick list of very popular cooperative games that are basically the same objective every game.

Pandemic - Cure all the diseases by collecting 4-5 cards of the same color and playing them in the appropriate city.

Ghost Stories- Move around the board exorcising ghosts and eventually defeat the incarnation(s) of Wu-Feng.

Sentinels of the Multiverse...Play cards to defeat the villain by reducing it's hit points to zero.

Arkham Horror - Move around the board collecting gear, defeating monsters and closing gates before the ancient one awakens.

Forbidden Desert
- Move around the board to collect all the ship parts to escape the desert before anyone dies.

Now let's look at Pathfinder... Move around to various locations collecting loot and defeating monsters to close locations and defeat the villain.

With those examples I can't really see why this is such a large complaint. I basically think of it as a standard cooperative game, with additional customization through gear and RPG elements allowing for character progression. The additional bonus is that it'll continue to grow over the next year so it'll be a long time before things get stale.

The game is not perfect but it's really well designed and packs a lot of replay value in the main box alone. Calling it repetitive because the scenarios don't change up the core game mechanics is probably a bit unfair. I've had the game for over a month and played 8 games without even getting to the 2nd Burnt Offerings scenario. It's very likely that you'll want to reply scenarios multiple times to try them with different mixes of characters or go for some loot to get a little stronger.


I don't have a problem with it inherently. Like you said, every game can be broken down that way. But those aren't capmpaign based games with a larger story, they're each an seperate instance. For me, its just an odd juxtaposition in a campaign based game.

If you look at games like the D&D Adventure series (Ravenloft, Ashardalon, Drizz't) Mice & Mystics or Descent, each scenario has different objectives. They're still essentially 'kill everything', but they have layers of locating an item, finding a certain NPC, rescuing prisoners, etc.

I'm just looking for a little more variation in my overarcing narrative. The character development thing looks awesome and I bet I'll enjoy, but I'd worried I'll find the game itself repetitive. If future expansions add more variety or when the inevitable knock-off game comes along, it will be an insta buy.
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Richard
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Matt -- it's a complaint for me because the game is set as an adventure game with many scenarios, just with 90% of them being the same scenario. It's a complaint for what it could have been.

It'd be like if the Lord of the Rings Card Game, the game was built around "Defeat villain X in two stages" over and over again instead of the amazingly creative variety that they have for each scenario.

The games you mentioned don't have scenarios. And really, this game isn't that great without the scenarios. If the game had one scenario as its game and that's it, it'd be pointless.

Anyway, I still enjoy the game, it's just I will stop buying expansions if they all boil down to "close locations to find band guy" and it'd be a shame because if they just made that one of the many types of scenarios instead of the game foundation, this game could have been so much more.
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Descent would match your desire - if you haven't played it yet. It's mostly cooperative, except for the one guy who gets to be a prick

Edit - just read your post where you mentioned Descent. Ok. So yeah, if you are looking for that kind of feel - PACG is a little different. Just realize that we have only seen 1 adventure on the path so far. It might become more like that as we go. But that's an unknown.
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Joseph Cochran
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Fromper wrote:
They've already said that at least one scenario in each pack will have a different theme. In the starter pack, there's an adventure with no villain, which breaks the standard mold. I'll be curious to see whatever variations they come up with in the future packs.


"Corner and defeat the villain" is the rulebook's assumption and it includes almost a page about that. Regardless of what will be different it's clear from the rulebook that this is what the intended default is and will always be for Rise of the Runelords (knowing that it's all printed already strengthens that assumption).

The "at least 1/5" number seems like it's probably really just 1/5 to me.

That said, the variety presented by the combination of locations and villains is there and it does make each scenario a bit more of a challenge than the last, but there's a certain amount of "lather, rinse, repeat" feeling to me. I'm willing to do it again with different friends, but it's probably a one-run-per-social-group thing for me.


guigtexas wrote:
However, players who binge on the game, playing scenarios after scenarios miss out on the more subtle aspect of the game and the pleasure that you get from waiting to play your next game and think about how your player is going to grow.


IMO the most interesting "meat" of this game IS the bit in between scenarios. I don't think the tension needs to be at the most interesting part of the game. That's a preference (just as I don't prefer PBF because the delay is just annoying), but it's those interesting decisions about what loot to keep and discard as a group together (face to face) that make me want to try the game again. When there's time in between then that interactivity is gone and often you can forget what your decisions were going to be.
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Mike Keegan
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mattamd wrote:

Ghost Stories- Move around the board exorcising ghosts and until eventually defeated by the incarnation(s) of Wu-Feng.


Fixed.

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Nathaniel GOUSSET
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mattamd wrote:

Sentinels of the Multiverse...Play cards to defeat the villain by reducing it's hit points to zero.


Untrue...

Some Vilain dont get defeated by reducing their HP to 0.
Also each vilain have very specific and different way it play and behave and you have to actually devise a strategy against them.

Nearly all vilains have special victory condition while all the Vilain in Pathfinder are just target cards and punchingball that doesnt react nor affect the scenario.

Each hero of SoTM is different with his own mechanism, they aren't at all alike and dont use a common cards.

The problem with PAGC and why it is so dull/bland is that :

1- All scenarios share the same cards, randomly. Meaning regardless of the scenario played you will see the same Boon and Banes.
2- Vilains and Henchman are target. They doesnt impact the scenario and doesn't hinder pro-actively the players.
3- This is a race against time, not a fight. And after a few race you know when to fold and when to run.
4- All the heroes share the same cards and basically the same power : discard/reveal a card from a peculiar type to add dice to a combat test. Valerius do with his weapons what the mages do with their spells and the rogue with any card, the druid with his allies...
There is few real player interraction and help to get, apart from the healer role and valerius D4...
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Alexander Mercer
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We have 1 step in the Adventure Path, and 1 out of the 8 adventures has a different goal, I'd also argue that Poison Pill with the trap henchmen plays out quite differently to the other scenarios, even if it still has a fairly standard villain.

I like the randomness, I'm a big fan of Warhammer Quest, and this scratches the same itch, without having many of the same weaknesses. An amusing exercise is to take notes and then create a short story to justify what happened. "The goblin boat was little more than a delivery system to launch the captive giant at the waterfront, a distraction to keep us away from their lair"

The blessings deck is the bigger villain, I mitigate this slightly by house-ruling losing a random card from each characters deck if forced to flee. Usually you lose a BotG or a Burglar, occasionally your prized Bastard Sword +1. A house rule admittedly but a simple one.

Player interaction does not always need to mean you can do stuff for your friends. This has a similar interaction level as Arkham Horror (probably more so) Valeros Harsk & Lem have direct ways of aiding, Kyra and Lini & Seelah have healing abilities, the sedondary use of ranged weapons is aiding others. Anyone can Bless pr toss over a potion. If you know that a ghost is in an area you can send in the spellcasters to deal with it, send in the heavy hitters to an area with the giant or ogre, and specialists to deal with certain barriers.

The heroes are different enough without being distracting, and they do feel different, part of it their construction sure, but they all have different skills, and can evolve in different directions.
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Richard Dewsbery
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guigtexas wrote:
I think some players are binging on this game and come out saying that there is no replayability or the scenarios are all the same.


Good point. How many of is have played the same scenario two or three times, with the same characters each time? I have, and despite the scenario being the same, despite the objective being the same, and despite the locations being the same, those games have notlayed out the same way at all. Whether that means the game has a good replay value or not pend on your personal point of view. I can understand those who says hat the game is simply about flipping cards and passing numerical checks, which feel the same if you just treat it as an exercise in mechanics. I can understand those who say that they feel like the game is playing them, that the critical decisions are either obvious or infrequent. But that's not how the game feels to me. Defeating the villain might be the aim of each scenario, much like crossing the line first is the aim of any race, but the story is the journey to the finish line, not just who got there first but how, and why, and with whom.
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Mike Keegan
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IKerensky wrote:
mattamd wrote:

Sentinels of the Multiverse...Play cards to defeat the villain by reducing it's hit points to zero.


Untrue...

Some Vilain dont get defeated by reducing their HP to 0.
Also each vilain have very specific and different way it play and behave and you have to actually devise a strategy against them.

Nearly all vilains have special victory condition while all the Vilain in Pathfinder are just target cards and punchingball that doesnt react nor affect the scenario.


Yes, but MOST get defeated by reducing their HP to 0. Of course there are exceptions (my favorite being the little 'dream girl'). Regardless, I don't think he was trying to compare the villains in PACG to those in SotM. In SotM the Villains ARE the scenario. In PACG they are just a part of it. He was simply stating that the mechanics were basically the same each time you play.

Quote:

Each hero of SoTM is different with his own mechanism, they aren't at all alike and dont use a common cards.


And each hero in PAGC has different attributes and skills that make them play differently. Yes, they all use the same pool of common cards, but no two heroes will have the exact same deck. Not to mention the deck will actually change and improve over time.

Quote:

The problem with PAGC and why it is so dull/bland is that :

1- All scenarios share the same cards, randomly. Meaning regardless of the scenario played you will see the same Boon and Banes.


True, but since it's random you'll never know what they might be. When you fight the same Villain in SotM you'll see the same cards. As new expansions come out you see new Villains with new cards, they same way you'll see new Boons and Banes as more PACG expansions are released.

Quote:

2- Vilains and Henchman are target. They doesnt impact the scenario and doesn't hinder pro-actively the players.


True, but in PACG each game has different locations and scenario cards which do often hinder the players.

Quote:

3- This is a race against time, not a fight. And after a few race you know when to fold and when to run.


Yes, I don't disagree with this. But I do find it humorous we can 'bravely run away!' in this game.

Quote:

4- All the heroes share the same cards and basically the same power : discard/reveal a card from a peculiar type to add dice to a combat test. Valerius do with his weapons what the mages do with their spells and the rogue with any card, the druid with his allies...
There is few real player interraction and help to get, apart from the healer role and valerius D4...


And a lot of the cards in SotM are simply ways of doing damage, or healing, or drawing cards. A lot of the decks in SotM don't directly affect other players. A good balance of heroes in important in both games. Bunker (damage), Legacy (support), and Tempest (healing) is a great, fun mix of heroes in SotM the way Valeros, Lem, and Kyra are in PACG.

Overall I get your point though. SotM is (at present) more difficult of a co-op game, and does seem to provide more variety each time you play. The campaign nature of PACG does make it a more 'grindy' game which would not appeal to everyone. Personally I love both.
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Matt Smith
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I think those who focus on the repetitive "find the Villain and defeat it" are missing the meat of the game. As Richard said, that is the finish line. Most of the race is interacting with the nuances of the Location effects and the cards you'll find there.

For example, I found the differences between the Poison Pill locations and Black Fang's Dungeon locations to be stark. The Poison Pill locations made me feel like I was in a town, interacting with people (Allies) more than monsters. When we got to Black Fang's Dungeon, all of a sudden the gloves came off, and we had to banish cards to close locations, lose health when finding a blessing (Shrine), add more monsters to locations (Warrens), etc. We were genuinely in fear of a couple of locations, due to their nasty effects. Sure, the finish line didn't change, but the variation in Locations made the race feel very different.
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