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Subject: some thoughts after 1500+ Pathfinder ACG threads rss

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Mike Selinker
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I've written a large post about rules over on the Paizo forums. Your comments are very much appreciated, here or there.

Mike
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Mark Buetow
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Mike,

It may come off as hubris or trolling or a million other things, but you should know that there are many of us for whom the game was not difficult to learn and perhaps, because of experience with RPGs, etc., these "meta" rules are things we took for granted or assumed ourselves.

I don't say this to downplay the difficulty that so many have had grokking the rules or their nuances; if they don't understand it, there's always a try to do better in explaining things.

But I do think you deserve some encouraging comments that what may appear to many as a game that is rife with confusing rules isn't necessarily so. Sure, you can always be clearer. You can always tighten and clarify rules. But the game is far from broken or unplayable.

Anyway, just throwing some encouragement your way. I'm sure the community will appreciate your willingness to interact with us, improve the game, and address people's concerns.

Now, back to the inn to quaff an ale while we celebrate our recent victory over Nualia and await the next chapter in this saga of poor Sandpoint...
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Aaron Morgan
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Malacandra wrote:
It may come off as hubris or trolling or a million other things, but you should know that there are many of us for whom the game was not difficult to learn and perhaps, because of experience with RPGs, etc., these "meta" rules are things we took for granted or assumed ourselves.


I came here to say mostly the same - It surprises me how many people need to be told things that should be self-evident (the card does what it says, and doesn't do what it doesn't say), but at the same time, it doesn't really surprise me at all.

Maybe that's just from my coming from an RPG and CCG background, though.

Clarity in rulebooks is always a tricky thing, but from what you've written in that post, Mike, it appears that if we get a second PF adventure path game, these lessons learned are going to make it even better than the current game!
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Malacandra wrote:
Mike,

It may come off as hubris or trolling or a million other things, but you should know that there are many of us for whom the game was not difficult to learn and perhaps, because of experience with RPGs, etc., these "meta" rules are things we took for granted or assumed ourselves.

I don't say this to downplay the difficulty that so many have had grokking the rules or their nuances; if they don't understand it, there's always a try to do better in explaining things.

But I do think you deserve some encouraging comments that what may appear to many as a game that is rife with confusing rules isn't necessarily so. Sure, you can always be clearer. You can always tighten and clarify rules. But the game is far from broken or unplayable.

Anyway, just throwing some encouragement your way. I'm sure the community will appreciate your willingness to interact with us, improve the game, and address people's concerns.

Now, back to the inn to quaff an ale while we celebrate our recent victory over Nualia and await the next chapter in this saga of poor Sandpoint...


Agreed. This is a great, fun game. My group thoroughly enjoys it. My only complaint is that I want the other adventure packs now.
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Matthew Fisk
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I agree with Mark. There were a few things I needed clarification on but for the most part I dropped into it quite easily. My wife and kids are certainly having a great time with it - which is all I was looking for in the first place.

Thanks!
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mike selinker wrote:
I've written a large post about rules over on the Paizo forums. Your comments are very much appreciated, here or there.

Mike


Thanks for that - it confirms that we got most things right by just reading the rulebook. With all the rules threads popping up, I was getting worried that we were missing something big time... Very glad that wasn't the case!
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Joshua R
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Fantastic - new required reading for people who want to ask questions about PACG! I'm sure some people will find fiddly ways to ask fiddly questions that skirt the edges of the things you cover in your post, but if people take the time to read and understand what you wrote, then at least 75% of the questions we see here should disappear like a summoned monster after the encounter.

Great game, Mike - thanks for supporting the community that's playing it so well!
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Mike Selinker
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Malacandra wrote:
But I do think you deserve some encouraging comments that what may appear to many as a game that is rife with confusing rules isn't necessarily so. Sure, you can always be clearer. You can always tighten and clarify rules. But the game is far from broken or unplayable.


This and the other comments are very much appreciated. I don't think the game is broken or unplayable, but I completely underestimated just how different the gameplay experience would be for a lot of gamers. Had I realized that, I would've approached the rules very differently.

Thankfully, people like the game enough that I have a chance to do so.

Mike
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Mark Campo
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and the compared it to others say "lotr lcg game rules the if i don't commit the quest do i still fail one?" and Death angels "when do i travel?"
and every other games rules forums, just remember lots of people are by machines so they can ask questions rather then seek them out. its like that table in the corner that "googles" on the pub quiz

good post though, nice pick up on Guidance, and the multi-check - closing one,

2 questions whats the best way to pick up a D4 and can i just 1/2 a D8?
and whats the best way to remove a d4 from ones foot?
:-)
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David Moffett
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Agreed. Save for a couple of typos or accidental omissions on some of the cards I found the rules and game play to be largely easy to understand and quite intuitive.

That said, additional clarification and compilation of rules clarifications like this is always welcome.

Also, this is one of the best games I've ever played and my current favorite. I can't wait to see how it all develops over the course of the next year. So thank you for creating this beautiful work of game craft.
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Jeff Dunford
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Thanks, Mike. I, for one, don't understand why so many people post questions that are clearly answered in the rule books or could be answered by reading the text on the card(s). Maybe rule books weren't included in several copies? Or people don't read rule books (or cards) anymore? Perhaps the rule books get discarded with the shrink-wrap?

Anyway, I was just re-reading the latest FAQ/Errata in preparation for tomorrow's PACG session when I saw this post and read what will henceforth be referred to as the "Gospel of Mike." Very much appreciated. I was also wondering if/when we could expect a PDF copy of the rules revised with all of the "Resolutions" added.
(I don't expect reprints of corrected cards; I'm sure we can remember that Detect Magic's recharge should be 4, and that Warhammer +1 is "magic," and that "Goblin Plate +1" isn't useless, etc)
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Stu Jones
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mike selinker wrote:
Thankfully, people like the game enough that I have a chance to do so.

Mike


Your perspective on this, and many other posts, has earned you a 'favorite developer, ever' spot in my heart.

Despite the problems, or the perception of them, you've always been honest, humble, and willing to provide such amazing 'service after the sale'. Thanks for making a game for all the right reasons.
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Mike Selinker
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iNano78 wrote:
Anyway, I was just re-reading the latest FAQ/Errata in preparation for tomorrow's PACG session when I saw this post and read what will henceforth be referred to as the "Gospel of Mike." Very much appreciated. I was also wondering if/when we could expect a PDF copy of the rules revised with all of the "Resolutions" added.


It's definitely "when," not "if." Paizo has correctly decided that they want to wait till I'm all done hashing this out before laying out a new rulebook. But we will do it, and hopefully not too long from now.

The "Gospel of Mike" is actually "Every food can be improved by more garlic or more chocolate, but not both."
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Steve Wardell
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mike selinker wrote:
The "Gospel of Mike" is actually "Every food can be improved by more garlic or more chocolate, but not both."


Am I the only one that just had a sudden desire to try both...
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Mike Selinker
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Deekow wrote:
Your perspective on this, and many other posts, has earned you a 'favorite developer, ever' spot in my heart.

Despite the problems, or the perception of them, you've always been honest, humble, and willing to provide such amazing 'service after the sale'. Thanks for making a game for all the right reasons.


I'm sure just about every game designer whose games you've played would want the players to play the way he or she intended. Sometimes it's just a matter of being confident that the players want that too.
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A fantastic post Mike.one that I think should serve as the basis for many a game design or guide for an aspiring designer.

Thank you for the game and thank you for your continued support.

Now if you will excuse me there is a bunyip in a farm house I need to remove.
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Jeff Dunford
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Khedron wrote:
mike selinker wrote:
The "Gospel of Mike" is actually "Every food can be improved by more garlic or more chocolate, but not both."


Am I the only one that just had a sudden desire to try both...


Well, garlic ice cream is pretty awesome, but I wouldn't add chocolate to it.
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Mike Selinker
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decaramas wrote:
A fantastic post Mike.one that I think should serve as the basis for many a game design or guide for an aspiring designer.

Thank you for the game and thank you for your continued support.

Now if you will excuse me there is a bunyip in a farm house I need to remove.


Try draining the water out of the house.
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mike selinker wrote:
decaramas wrote:
A fantastic post Mike.one that I think should serve as the basis for many a game design or guide for an aspiring designer.

Thank you for the game and thank you for your continued support.

Now if you will excuse me there is a bunyip in a farm house I need to remove.


Try draining the water out of the house.

Is there a spell for that?
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Alex Murphy
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Mike,
Thanks for your dedication to the game and to us. My wife and I had a blast playing PACG recently, and I can't wait for a chance to play it with some of our friends. My wife isn't normally much of a gamer, but it was fantastic watching her fret over her feat decisions and get anxious about the scenario rewards. I think that mechanic really gets the player invested in the game more than anything else.

I do have some ideas for improvement (different spell effects for Invisibility/Sanctuary/Enfeeble/Sleep, effects for lightning/fire/ice on spells and magic weapons) but I don't want to take up too much space in this thread. Anyway, great work and we look forward to seeing what you have in store for the future.
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Mike Selinker
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Fromper wrote:
mike selinker wrote:
Try draining the water out of the house.

Is there a spell for that?


There might be.

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Mike,

My kids (7 and 10) and I have been really enjoying PACG for the past couple of weeks, which makes it a great game in my book. I have also found the rules no more "difficult" than other card based games like MTG or LoTR:LCG. When contradictions appear or things are unclear, I look things up in the manual or on BGG. It also helps that my 10 year old son has basically memorized the manual and the cards .

You have created a great system that has/will produce many hours of enjoyment, which is the key point. And since the game is not competitive (like D&D), I don't mind making rulings on the fly (like D&D) as long as I continue to enjoy the experience of playing the game. So I will take the "PACG Gospel of Mike", add it my understanding of the rules, and continue to enjoy the game. And if I think a particular ruling will lower that level of enjoyment, I will change/ignore it. Just like I did when I played D&D 20 years ago, because having fun is the most important part.

Based on the fact that my son and daughter played the game BEFORE breakfast this morning, and as I left for work my son was writing in his notebook ideas for new cards, you have hit a gaming home run. You have given us the base upon which our little "world" has been created. Thanks, and keep up the good work.
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Mike Selinker
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reitoei wrote:
Fantastic - new required reading for people who want to ask questions about PACG! I'm sure some people will find fiddly ways to ask fiddly questions that skirt the edges of the things you cover in your post, but if people take the time to read and understand what you wrote, then at least 75% of the questions we see here should disappear like a summoned monster after the encounter.


I would happily take a lower ranking on the Hotness scale to never see a question about whether you can play blessings on other players' turns again.
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Mike Selinker
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marutter wrote:
Based on the fact that my son and daughter played the game BEFORE breakfast this morning, and as I left for work my son was writing in his notebook ideas for new cards, you have hit a gaming home run. You have given us the base upon which our little "world" has been created. Thanks, and keep up the good work.


Great to hear. I hope your son will share his ideas for cards.
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Mike Selinker
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bbarnes wrote:
Mike,
Thanks for your dedication to the game and to us. My wife and I had a blast playing PACG recently, and I can't wait for a chance to play it with some of our friends. My wife isn't normally much of a gamer, but it was fantastic watching her fret over her feat decisions and get anxious about the scenario rewards. I think that mechanic really gets the player invested in the game more than anything else.

I do have some ideas for improvement (different spell effects for Invisibility/Sanctuary/Enfeeble/Sleep, effects for lightning/fire/ice on spells and magic weapons) but I don't want to take up too much space in this thread. Anyway, great work and we look forward to seeing what you have in store for the future.


Thanks. I look forward to hearing those ideas. There are a lot more cards that have to be made.
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