Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
10 Posts

Pandemic: In the Lab» Forums » Rules

Subject: Various Team Game questions rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Grant Fikes
United States
Abilene
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
Players can win by either: curing all 5 diseases; curing all 4 regular diseases and then removing the last purple cube from the board; curing and eradicating any 4 diseases; or curing and eradicating 3 of the 4 regular diseases and then removing the last purple cube from the board.


What happens if the 4th cure or the 3rd eradication happens while there are no purple cubes on the board? Does the game end as a victory for humanity (albeit with no team able to claim credit for purple's absence)? Or do you have to wait for purple to appear before someone can cure or neutralize it?

Quote:
When a disease is cured or eradicated on a Team’s turn, take the relevant award marker(s) and put them face up in front of that team. These earn prestige at game end, as shown on each team’s Goal card. If an eradication results from playing an Event, the Team that played the Event takes the relevant award markers.


It is Team A's turn. Team B plays a Special Orders card, allowing a player from Team A to move Team C's Medic to eradicate a cured disease. Who gets credit: Team A because it's that team's turn, or team B because their Special Event helped with it? (I assume that the last sentence is more intended for situations where Team A plays a cure and Team B plays Rapid Vaccine Deployment to eradicate.)

The rules say nothing about this being legal, but it would be totally awesome if teams could their prestige points as bargaining chips. "I'll give you the Blue Cure Award marker if your Researcher gives us the blue card we need to cure the blue Virulent Strain."
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Lehmann
United States
Palo Alto
California
flag msg tools
designer
mbmb
mathgrant wrote:
What happens if the 4th cure or the 3rd eradication happens while there are no purple cubes on the board? Does the game end as a victory for humanity?

Yes. (Just as in the normal mutation challenge rules, see OTB.)

Quote:
Quote:
When a disease is cured or eradicated on a Team’s turn, take the relevant award marker(s) and put them face up in front of that team. These earn prestige at game end, as shown on each team’s Goal card. If an eradication results from playing an Event, the Team that played the Event takes the relevant award markers.

It is Team A's turn. Team B plays a Special Orders card, allowing a player from Team A to move Team C's Medic to eradicate a cured disease. Who gets credit?

Team B, as per the rules.

Further, Special Orders requires the Team C Medic to give permission to let his pawn be affected by Special Orders.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Grant Fikes
United States
Abilene
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Tom Lehmann wrote:
mathgrant wrote:
What happens if the 4th cure or the 3rd eradication happens while there are no purple cubes on the board? Does the game end as a victory for humanity?

Yes. (Just as in the normal mutation challenge rules, see OTB.)


Just to confirm: no team gets the prestige points for purple's neutralization (the term I've coined for removing all cubes of an uncured disease) in this instance, whereas if purple's neutralization is what triggers the end of the game, then the team who triggered that gets the prestige?

Tom Lehmann wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
When a disease is cured or eradicated on a Team’s turn, take the relevant award marker(s) and put them face up in front of that team. These earn prestige at game end, as shown on each team’s Goal card. If an eradication results from playing an Event, the Team that played the Event takes the relevant award markers.

It is Team A's turn. Team B plays a Special Orders card, allowing a player from Team A to move Team C's Medic to eradicate a cured disease. Who gets credit?

Team B, as per the rules.

Further, Special Orders requires the Team C Medic to give permission to let his pawn be affected by Special Orders.


What if Team A and Team C agree to use Team A's New Assignment to change a member of Team C to a Medic, and then use Team B's Special Orders to move that Medic as above?

Some more Team Game questions:

Quote:
It takes 2 actions, not 1, to Share Knowledge between teams (due to
the teams’ incompatible disease protocols). Within a given team, Share
Knowledge takes just 1 action.


How does this affect the Epidemiologist?

In a 6-player Team Game, the event Sequencing Breakthrough can cause a Field Operative to find a cure with a single card (and 3 cubes). How does this affect discovering a cure for the purple disease in the Worldwide Panic challenge, where a purple cure must contain 2 cards with cities containing purple?

How does Sequencing Breakthrough affect who gets credit for a cure?

(It's surprisingly goshdarn fun coming up with all of these questions. )
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Lehmann
United States
Palo Alto
California
flag msg tools
designer
mbmb
mathgrant wrote:
no team gets the prestige points for [there being no purple cubes on the board when the 4th cure or 3rd eradication occurs]

Correct.

Quote:
[if removing the last purple cube ends] the game, then the team who [did] that gets the prestige?

That's what the ITL rules, page 6 note states.

Quote:
What if Team A and Team C agree to use Team A's New Assignment to change a member of Team C to a Medic [...]

The rules do not direct players to trace "causal chains" backwards. How the Medic came into play has no bearing on awards.

A more interesting version of this question would be if two diseases are eradicated, the Medic is not in play, Team B cures a third disease, and a Team C non-Medic pawn was in the city containing the only disease cubes of that disease. If Team A plays New Assignment and picks the Team C player whose pawn is in this city, who then chooses to replace his or her role with the Medic, this disease is immediately eradicated and the game ends. In this case, Team C -- not A (or B) -- receives the award. Again, the Event did not directly result in the disease being eradicated; it gave the Team C member an opportunity to change his or her role. Team C's resulting powers then caused the disease to be eradicated.

The difference between this and your original Special Orders case is that Team B's Special Orders results in actions that directly cause the eradication. Without the play of this event, the disease is not eradicated.

Quote:
Quote:
It takes 2 actions, not 1, to Share Knowledge between teams (due to
the teams’ incompatible disease protocols). Within a given team, Share
Knowledge takes just 1 action.

How does this affect the Epidemiologist?

It has no effect. The Epidemiologist's power does not involve the Share Knowledge action.

Quote:
In a 6-player Team Game, the event Sequencing Breakthrough can cause a Field Operative to find a cure with a single card (and 3 cubes). How does this affect discovering a cure for the purple disease in the Worldwide Panic challenge, where a purple cure must contain 2 cards with cities containing purple?

It reduces it to 1 City card, which must contain at least 1 purple cube.

Quote:
How does Sequencing Breakthrough affect who gets credit for a cure?

It doesn't. The rule about Events applies only to Eradications, not the Discover a Cure action (see the ITL rules, page 6).

Quote:
It's surprisingly goshdarn fun coming up with all of these questions.

I'm not enjoying spending lots of my time answering them. Most of these questions are either invalid or already addressed in the rules.

Your question about the purple cure and Sequencing Breakthrough in the 6-player Team Game was a fine question, though. Thanks.

EDIT: clarified the Event eradication paragraph.
2 
 Thumb up
5.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Grant Fikes
United States
Abilene
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Tom Lehmann wrote:
Quote:
It's surprisingly goshdarn fun coming up with all of these questions.

I'm not enjoying spending lots of my time answering them. Most of these questions are either invalid or already addressed in the rules.


Better to answer them now than when the outcome of a game is in the balance, I say. People will always ask dumb questions that are not dumb to them because they don't understand something that's bleedingly obvious to someone else; if one can take it in enough stride, then the ensuing enlightenment will provide the best possible outcome for the person asking the stupid question. I do apologize for being a PITA with my questions (especially the question about Sequencing Breakthrough and cure prestige), but the enlightening answers you've provided, including the reasoning behind them, will certainly provide a long-term benefit to me as a player, and I can only hope to express enough gratitude for these answers to provide a long-term benefit to you as a designer. (In my defense, though, despite the OTB rules specifying that you can win by having no purple cubes and four normal cures on the board, the ITL rules did specify "and then removing the last purple cube from the board", implying that the last purple cube's removal must happen after the fourth cure or third eradication.)

Now, here's where I remain a PITA and ask not-very-enjoyable questions: I gather that essentially, the team whose action most directly caused the cure or eradication always gets the prestige. In the event of a cure, it's always the team who Discovers a Cure, because that action directly causes the cure to exist, regardless of what Special Event cards might have made that cure easier. In the event of a New Assignment card causing a player on Team C to become a Medic and eradicate a cured disease because he already happens to be in the last city containing the disease, Team C made the decision to become a Medic, of which the eradication was the most direct consequence. How, then, does that mean that the player who played Special Orders to allow someone else to move a Medic to eradicate a disease is the one who gets credit for that disease's eradication? The eradication of that disease was the direct consequence of the decision to move the Medic, which was made by Team A in my example. The order of events is: Team B plays Special Orders, the Medic grants permission to be moved by the Team A player, Team A moves the Medic.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
It takes 2 actions, not 1, to Share Knowledge between teams (due to
the teams’ incompatible disease protocols). Within a given team, Share
Knowledge takes just 1 action.

How does this affect the Epidemiologist?

It has no effect. The Epidemiologist's power does not involve the Share Knowledge action.


Holy crap, and people thought the Epidemiologist was too weak. Being able to save on 2 action points when taking a city card from a different team is pretty strong!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Lehmann
United States
Palo Alto
California
flag msg tools
designer
mbmb
mathgrant wrote:
I gather that essentially, the team whose action most directly caused the cure or eradication always gets the prestige.

No, that's your (false) generalization of the rules. Nowhere in the rules is there anything about "direct causation".

What the rules say is "If the eradication results from playing an Event, the Team that played the Event takes the relevant award markers."

Quote:
[Why is] the player who played Special Orders to allow someone else to move a Medic to eradicate a disease is the one who gets credit for that disease's eradication? The eradication of that disease was the direct consequence of the decision to move the Medic, which was made by Team A in my example. The order of events is: Team B plays Special Orders, the Medic grants permission to be moved by the Team A player, Team A moves the Medic.

Team B's play of Special Orders resulted in Team A being able to move the Medic, whose powers then eradicated the disease.

Team A can't move the Medic except as the direct result of this Event. Without it, Team A could "decide" all day long to move the Medic and the Medic ain't going anywhere (on Team A's turn). Yes, Team A is making the movement decisions (and Team C's powers are removing the cubes), but Team B's play of the Event Special Orders is what results in the disease being eradicated on Team A's turn.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Grant Fikes
United States
Abilene
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Tom Lehmann wrote:
Team A can't move the Medic except as the direct result of this Event. Without it, Team A could "decide" all day long to move the Medic and the Medic ain't going anywhere (on Team A's turn). Yes, Team A is making the movement decisions (and Team C's powers are removing the cubes), but Team B's play of the Event Special Orders is what results in the disease being eradicated on Team A's turn.


Team A C can't move become the Medic except as the direct result of this Event. Without it, Team A C could "decide" all day long to move become the Medic and the Medic ain't going anywhere replacing any role cards (on Team A's turn). Yes, Team A C is making the movement role-change decisions (and Team C's powers are removing the cubes), but Team B's A's play of the Event Special Orders New Assignment is what results in the disease being eradicated on Team A's turn.

Do forgive my stupidity, but I would rather just have a ruling that outright states that New Assignment and Special Orders work differently (or maybe that eradications and game-ending eradications work differently). The logic seems inconsistent here.

Am I a bad person for seeing "decide" in quotes and immediately thinking, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice"?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Lehmann
United States
Palo Alto
California
flag msg tools
designer
mbmb
Sigh. You're still attempting to trace "ultimate causal chains" -- the rules don't work that way.

In the New Assignment case, the event is *over* before powers are then evaluated and the eradication occurs.

In the Special Orders case, the event is *continuing to be in effect* as the eradication occurs.

This is why in the first case, the event does not *result* in the eradication (and Team C gets the award), whereas in the second case, the event does *result* in the eradication (and Team B gets the award). This is a consistent rule.

Tracing causality -- whether it is to determine legal responsibility or to assign credit or blame -- has to end somewhere (this is a standard topic in a Philosophy of Law course; if you're having trouble with this concept, then go research this). The duration of the event sets the boundary for determining "results" for the purpose of assigning the Team awards in Pandemic.

That's the ruling. Deal.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Grant Fikes
United States
Abilene
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Tom Lehmann wrote:
Sigh. You're still attempting to trace "ultimate causal chains" -- the rules don't work that way.

In the New Assignment case, the event is *over* before powers are then evaluated and the eradication occurs.

In the Special Orders case, the event is *continuing to be in effect* as the eradication occurs.


I do apologize for the frustration I've caused, but suddenly something clicks for me now because of this illustration. As someone who had the most difficult time explaining to a new player that no, you can't play that Borrowed Time you just drew to get two more actions because you're not in the actions phase anymore, despite it being in the rulebook, I empathize with your frustration, and hope to make it up to you; maybe the fact that I have understanding and therefore won't bug you again will be a start.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Hughes
msg tools
Hello fellow Pandemic fans

Sorry for resurrecting this thread but I think there's more clarification required here.

There are several Event cards which have a continuing effect, (AFAIK) can be used in conjunction with each other and can assist in bringing about eradications.

In the event that multiple teams play some combination of Special Orders, Borrowed Time and/or Mobile Hospital in the same turn, which team gets credit for the eradication then?

Seems to me that in some rare scenarios, Mobile Hospital could even be used to essentially "steal" the eradication award from another team. Is this correct?

Perhaps I'm simply missing something terribly obvious.

Thanks
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.