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Subject: Lets talk effectively utilizing Deep Space 9 in a battle rss

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Jonathan M D Thomas
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So I got DS9 on Saturday. Now the question I have is how to play the station 'evenly' versus a fleet? It looks like a sitting duck that would fall quickly to focused fire.

I'd like to have the Dominion or Klingons face off against DS9 in a standard 100 point style battle, but it seems that even with upgrades that it would have a disadvantage. Klingons can roll close to 20 attack dice per round against DS9's 18 toughness. With 0 evasion, it could very easily be destroyed in one round without being able to fire a shot.

After examining possibilities I have a general best course of action (hopefully this doesn't get to far into a rules discussion). The best course seems to be to A) use Picard to always fire 1st if possibly and get the most action economy possible. B) Take Sulu to give the station some evasion so it can survive more than 1-2 rounds (this seriously makes no sense thematically but isn't against the rules, yet). C) Take Spock to make the attacks as lethal as possible (Assuming the scan token can work for all 4 potential attacks). D) Use Scotty for more firepower when needed, or healing when attacks are not available. Assuming you take 3 QT's (Since you don't disable Torpedoes, its possible you could just use 1 QT for all 4 firing arcs and then add something else like the minefield or plasma torpedoes that fire at range 1. Since you only get 1 target lock, it really shouldn't matter), that's 44+6+3+5+5+6+6+6 or 81 points; not even close to 100 points. Definitely seems like you'd need a support ship to get up to a 100 point game. Probably by taking 1 secondary weapon and/or dropping scotty and then taking something like the Defiant to draw fire away.

Any good thoughts on a workable DS9 scenario?
 
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Jon NyD

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The thing I don't like about DS9 is that its stationary... I imagine if you work in a movement that slowly rotates it things would become VERY interesting.
 
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Scott Kelly
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Ask Andrew Parks if DS9 + Scan + Spock would trigger Spock for each of the 4 DS9 attacks ;-)
 
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Steve Smith
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The problem with the DS9 is that it is over-priced. It should be half the cost.

All starships so far have a cost that is double their stats.

Starbases and space stations should have a cost that is equal to their stats. This would compensate for their complete lack of mobility. The extra points could then spent on upgrades and other ships to defend the base.

The limited firing arcs and center-base range also needs to go completely. It should just act like an immobile ship.
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The Bat
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If your going to play the DS9, how do you determine how/where to deploy it?
 
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Dave Benhart
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I've put together a 100pt "scenario" with Khan on DS9 + Reliant vs. Picard & Kirk. Here's the two builds:

Khan Reborn

Abandoned Space Station (Independent 42)
Khan Singh (Independent 5)
Photon Torpedoes (Federation 5)
Photon Torpedoes (Federation 5)
Joachim (Independent 4)
Data (Lore?) (Federation 3)
Superior Intellect (Independent 5)
Total: 69

U.S.S. Reliant (Federation 20)
Clark Terell (Federation 1)
Photon Torpedoes (Federation 5)
Kyle (Federation 2)
Pavel Chekov (Federation 3)
Total: 31

Total Point Cost: 100

Against:

U.S.S. Enterprise-D (Federation 28)
Jean-Luc Picard (Federation 6)
Antimatter Mines (Federation 5)
Photon Torpedoes (Federation 5)
Mr. Spock (Federation 5)
Worf (Federation 3)
O'Brien (Federation 2)
Engage (Federation 3)

U.S.S. Enterprise (Federation 22)
James T. Kirk (Federation 6)
Photon Torpedoes (Federation 3)
Montgomery Scott (Federation 5)
Cheat Death (Federation 3)
Corbomite Maneuver (Federation 3)

Total Point Cost: 99

I did this mostly because it amuses me. Imagine Joachim getting pissed enough at Khan and while he's partially unconscious knocking Khan out & running away to fight another day. Then they stumble upon a Nor class space station still under construction...80 yrs later Kirk other illegitimate son (of COURSE there was more than one, right?) enlists Picards help to get revenge on Khan.
Or some other absurd story line to make this all work out.

jonnyd76 wrote:
The thing I don't like about DS9 is that its stationary... I imagine if you work in a movement that slowly rotates it things would become VERY interesting.


This I think is mandatory, but I'm not sure how to do it. I think the station should either A) rotate a set amount each turn that doesn't match any Bank or Turn maneuver so ships can't "hide out" in between pylons or B) rotate a variable amount set by the controlling player. Maybe certain high-speed rotations are require Auxiliary Power? Or just large changes, say from Rotate 0 -> Rotate 3. This could give the defending player some ability to counter the maneuverability of the ships attacking it.

Oh, and I think the "Agility" term on starships is poorly named. It's not really agility, is it? It's "defensiveness", or how much damage can the shields shrug off at once, evasive maneuvers (erratic maneuvers in SFB), that sort of thing. "Rotate the shield harmonics!"
 
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Steve Smith
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jonnyd76 wrote:
The thing I don't like about DS9 is that its stationary... I imagine if you work in a movement that slowly rotates it things would become VERY interesting.


I like it. A lot. After all ships have plotted their maneuver dials but before any maneuver dials are revealed, the DS9 player may rotate DS9 to any facing desired.

Still, though, get rid of the center station's range limit of 2.
 
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Dave Benhart
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Stormtrooper721 wrote:
jonnyd76 wrote:
The thing I don't like about DS9 is that its stationary... I imagine if you work in a movement that slowly rotates it things would become VERY interesting.


I like it. A lot. After all ships have plotted their maneuver dials but before any maneuver dials are revealed, the DS9 player may rotate DS9 to any facing desired.

Still, though, get rid of the center station's range limit of 2.


Nah, I'd keep the center range of 2 because it's measured from the edge of the token.
Or make it Range 3 but measured from the yellow/blue circle in the center or the edge of the Habitat Ring itself. I just checked and most of the central weaponry is mounted above/below the habitat ring, not on the central core.
 
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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batman15 wrote:
If your going to play the DS9, how do you determine how/where to deploy it?


To maximize all firing arcs, the station needs to be in the middle or probably atleast say 40% there. In the corner or against the edge like the OP seriously limits what the station can do

drscottkelly wrote:
Ask Andrew Parks if DS9 + Scan + Spock would trigger Spock for each of the 4 DS9 attacks ;-)


DS9 brings up a lot of rules questions when you think about it. Its the only 'ship' so far that fires up to 4 times so it brings up some new elements.

I almost feel like each of the 'firing arcs' needs a separate action each turn or at least, the station should get multiple actions each turn. What use is unlimited torpedoes (on the named version) if can only get 1 target lock at a time.

Not moving or atleast turning is also a major nerf to the station (the station did actually move in the series). It wouldn't be so bad if the center had a 360 arc at range 3 from the edge like the pylons, but the holes in the defense with no way to compensate make for a tough time potentially. In all honestly, the pylons should have 180 degree firing arcs based on their performance in the show which would help out this issue.

Along the same line, the station doesn't have an evade action, but what about evade actions from secondary sources such as Data, Picard, Sulu, etc.

davedujour wrote:
Oh, and I think the "Agility" term on starships is poorly named. It's not really agility, is it? It's "defensiveness", or how much damage can the shields shrug off at once, evasive maneuvers (erratic maneuvers in SFB), that sort of thing. "Rotate the shield harmonics!"


Yeah I really believe not giving DS9 a defense roll was a mistake. Thematically it shouldn't have one, but practically speaking, defense dice > large hull + shields over time. Not rolling dice in a dice rolling game just makes it seem weird.
 
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Thomas Landy
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Personally, I think the main problem is we shouldn't have had DS9 yet. This game is still in its infancy, practically brand new, so there really should have been some time to hammer out the basics before adding extra elements to the game like this. I mean, I like what Andrew and his team have been doing, but I think things like this (and the inclusion of resources) so early could have a negative impact on the game. Hopefully, though, it won't.
 
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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H00D4M4N wrote:
Personally, I think the main problem is we shouldn't have had DS9 yet. This game is still in its infancy, practically brand new, so there really should have been some time to hammer out the basics before adding extra elements to the game like this. I mean, I like what Andrew and his team have been doing, but I think things like this (and the inclusion of resources) so early could have a negative impact on the game. Hopefully, though, it won't.


I don't even think coming out to early is a problem for DS9. I think the main problem is, the rules were designed around the station being a prop for the OP events more so than being a stand-alone, tournament legal game piece. I guess the station just seems weak for the cost and what it does, idk.
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Trueflight Silverwing
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Stormtrooper721 wrote:
The problem with the DS9 is that it is over-priced. It should be half the cost.

All starships so far have a cost that is double their stats.

Starbases and space stations should have a cost that is equal to their stats. This would compensate for their complete lack of mobility. The extra points could then spent on upgrades and other ships to defend the base.

The limited firing arcs and center-base range also needs to go completely. It should just act like an immobile ship.



Having played a couple games against it, I'm starting to wonder if it isn't undercosted quite a bit. Try playing a few games against it with a good player in control of it and fully loaded with options. We played a couple 100 pt games against it and a support ship and it won the first two and lost the third.

Considering that there is a station token that comes with the Negh'Var and the stats for it are nearly the same as DS9, without the special torpedo rule and it only gets one attack and it costs the same points as DS9 does. DS9 can make 4 attacks a turn (realistically only 3, but still) with torpedoes that never need to be disabled (though you still require a lock which limits their use a little. It's not as easy as you would think to get in the 16 hits required to take the station out. You might be able to get in a shot or two from its blind spot, but that is why it has support ships to keep you moving. In one game we had, they dropped an Antimatter Minefield right in the blindspot to limit its use.

That all said, I really hope that when Month 6 comes around and the tokens are re-released along with the DS9 model that it does have a movement dial. I would be happy if it only had 1's on it as long as it could move or rotate.
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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Ender02 wrote:
Stormtrooper721 wrote:
The problem with the DS9 is that it is over-priced. It should be half the cost.

All starships so far have a cost that is double their stats.

Starbases and space stations should have a cost that is equal to their stats. This would compensate for their complete lack of mobility. The extra points could then spent on upgrades and other ships to defend the base.

The limited firing arcs and center-base range also needs to go completely. It should just act like an immobile ship.



Having played a couple games against it, I'm starting to wonder if it isn't undercosted quite a bit. Try playing a few games against it with a good player in control of it and fully loaded with options. We played a couple 100 pt games against it and a support ship and it won the first two and lost the third.

Considering that there is a station token that comes with the Negh'Var and the stats for it are nearly the same as DS9, without the special torpedo rule and it only gets one attack and it costs the same points as DS9 does. DS9 can make 4 attacks a turn (realistically only 3, but still) with torpedoes that never need to be disabled (though you still require a lock which limits their use a little. It's not as easy as you would think to get in the 16 hits required to take the station out. You might be able to get in a shot or two from its blind spot, but that is why it has support ships to keep you moving. In one game we had, they dropped an Antimatter Minefield right in the blindspot to limit its use.

That all said, I really hope that when Month 6 comes around and the tokens are re-released along with the DS9 model that it does have a movement dial. I would be happy if it only had 1's on it as long as it could move or rotate.


You care to share the upgrades/fleet they were using with DS9?
 
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Brian Compton
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Thomas Landy, Your point about the timing of a new component is a good one and I agree in concept, but it does not apply to Star Trek Attack Wing. This game can trace its legacy through the Star Wars X-Wing game and further back to the Wings of War game, meaning the mechanics have been around for a few years. Additionally, many of the compromises to theme and accuracy (to the fictional canon) are explained away by the extensive play-testing that has occurred.
 
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Waspinator
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Hmmm.... Maybe put DS9 on a little pivoting wheel?
 
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The Bat
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the_triangle_man wrote:
Thomas Landy, Your point about the timing of a new component is a good one and I agree in concept, but it does not apply to Star Trek Attack Wing. This game can trace its legacy through the Star Wars X-Wing game and further back to the Wings of War game, meaning the mechanics have been around for a few years. Additionally, many of the compromises to theme and accuracy (to the fictional canon) are explained away by the extensive play-testing that has occurred.


Not sure why it wouldn't apply. While the games roots can be traced back to other games, it is quite different from them.
 
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