Recommend
6 
 Thumb up
 Hide
11 Posts

Wargames» Forums » General

Subject: BOOK CLUB: Forgotten Ally POLL rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Hunga Dunga
Canada
Oakville
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Poll
What format did you or are you going to get your copy of Forgotten Ally?
New from a brick and mortar bookstore
New from an online bookstore
Used from a brick and mortar bookstore
Used from an online bookstore
Electronic version
Borrowed from a public library
Electronically borrowed from a friend
      18 answers
Poll created by Hungadunga
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill Lawson
United States
Rutland
Vermont
flag msg tools
I drink and I know things
badge
Night gathers and now my watch begins
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I've decided to pass altogether on this. I'm sure its a fine book but from what I understand about it, its not a military history so much as a general history. Not really in my area (narrow at times) of interest.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wendell
United States
Yellow Springs
Ohio
flag msg tools
Si non potes reperire Berolini in tabula, ludens essetis non WIF.
badge
Hey, get your stinking cursor off my face! I got nukes, you know.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
billyboy wrote:
I've decided to pass altogether on this. I'm sure its a fine book but from what I understand about it, its not a military history so much as a general history. Not really in my area (narrow at times) of interest.


This depends on how you define military history. I don't think it needs to be defined so narrowly. The book (which I am reading) is clearly about the war in China and its affect on China. It is big picture - which is definitely my preference. So if you want details about how the umpty-umpth brigade in the KMT's (German-organized) 88th division led by General Sun Yuan-liang fought in Shanghai during the afternoon of October 3, 1937 - well you won't find it here. Thankfully!
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hunga Dunga
Canada
Oakville
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, it's a history about a war.



It dives into details when the author feels it's needed. It also looks at the political dimensions of the conflict, which are far more convoluted than I would ever have imagined.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
roger miller
United States
California
flag msg tools
publisher
With Bill on this one.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Don Cooper
United States
Syracuse
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I have read "Forgotten Ally " by Mitter and found it to be an unique and well written piece on the Japanese-Sino conflict from a political point of view. There's a lot of background on the war internally and externally. The fighting between the Nationalists and Communists, which is well known, is explored in depth. But there is also Wang Jingwei, a forgotten artifact of Chinese history, who emerges from being a stout supporter of Chiang into a puppet of Imperial Japan. There is a narrative of military operations, usually ending in huge losses for the Chinese, atrocities committed by both sides and political backstabbing. It is often hard to follow the story of battles and campaigns although book does have a great set of strategic maps of China. As for military history it really takes a second seat to politics and strategic planning. Still it is a very accessible book for Westerners new to the subject and the author definitely knows his history of China.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim P.
United States
Champaign
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
"A Truth thats told with bad intent Beats all the Lies you can invent It is right it should be so Man was made for Joy & Woe And when this we rightly know Thro the World we safely go Joy & Woe are woven fine A Clothing for the soul divine ."
Avatar
mbmb
DUMASCLUB wrote:
I have read "Forgotten Ally " by Mitter and found it to be an unique and well written piece on the Japanese-Sino conflict from a political point of view. There's a lot of background on the war internally and externally. The fighting between the Nationalists and Communists, which is well known, is explored in depth. But there is also Wang Jingwei, a forgotten artifact of Chinese history, who emerges from being a stout supporter of Chiang into a puppet of Imperial Japan. There is a narrative of military operations, usually ending in huge losses for the Chinese, atrocities committed by both sides and political backstabbing. It is often hard to follow the story of battles and campaigns although book does have a great set of strategic maps of China. As for military history it really takes a second seat to politics and strategic planning. Still it is a very accessible book for Westerners new to the subject and the author definitely knows his history of China.


I am enjoying it a lot. While Japanese bombing raids took place everyday like clockwork killing more chinese civs and wrecking infrastructure, the allies kept telling them to "Dont Give Up" - because if they did, it would release 800,000 japanese fighters back into other hotspots in the Eastern Theatre.

The Chinese seem to have a very long memory about those years. It is something the west must learn to understand.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Stuart
United States
Los Alamos
New Mexico
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
InvisibleRobots wrote:
The Chinese seem to have a very long memory about those years.


And why wouldn't they?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Dorosh
Canada
Calgary
Alberta
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Tactical Wargamer's Journal
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bob_santafe wrote:
InvisibleRobots wrote:
The Chinese seem to have a very long memory about those years.


And why wouldn't they?


Um. "We" didn't, for one. Despite Bataan, Hong Kong, Singapore, etc. and et. al.

Excuse me while I turn down the volume on my Sony and park my Nissan.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ocean Druen
United States
Buffalo Grove
IL
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Michael Dorosh wrote:


Um. "We" didn't, for one. Despite Bataan, Hong Kong, Singapore, etc. and et. al.

Excuse me while I turn down the volume on my Sony and park my Nissan.


From my perspective: as someone who has grew up under the "historical anger" of the war from my relatives - then went and lived and worked in Japan I follow two theories on this.

1) There is a brief underlying feeling that the Japanese should have "known better". China was attempting to dig themselves out of the shadow of the colonials, much like Japan did 50 years earlier, and that the actions of Japan were something of a betrayal to all of Asia (by trying to create an empire). This is hinted at in the book.

2) The continuing denial of the Japanese to admit any fault for the war and the atrocities.

3) (optional): there is also a belief that the hatred stems from Mao's propaganda - make the Japanese a demon and the Nationalists the reluctant ally in fighting that demon - thus demonizing your fellow countrymen while calling them an ally.

I'm not sure about #3 because I have not experienced this (as I did not grow up on the mainland) but it is something that seems logical and would follow Mao's propaganda strategy.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wendell
United States
Yellow Springs
Ohio
flag msg tools
Si non potes reperire Berolini in tabula, ludens essetis non WIF.
badge
Hey, get your stinking cursor off my face! I got nukes, you know.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DarkTori wrote:
Michael Dorosh wrote:


Um. "We" didn't, for one. Despite Bataan, Hong Kong, Singapore, etc. and et. al.

Excuse me while I turn down the volume on my Sony and park my Nissan.


From my perspective: as someone who has grew up under the "historical anger" of the war from my relatives - then went and lived and worked in Japan I follow two theories on this.

1) There is a brief underlying feeling that the Japanese should have "known better". China was attempting to dig themselves out of the shadow of the colonials, much like Japan did 50 years earlier, and that the actions of Japan were something of a betrayal to all of Asia (by trying to create an empire). This is hinted at in the book.

2) The continuing denial of the Japanese to admit any fault for the war and the atrocities.

3) (optional): there is also a belief that the hatred stems from Mao's propaganda - make the Japanese a demon and the Nationalists the reluctant ally in fighting that demon - thus demonizing your fellow countrymen while calling them an ally.

I'm not sure about #3 because I have not experienced this (as I did not grow up on the mainland) but it is something that seems logical and would follow Mao's propaganda strategy.


Point 1 - good point. Important Chinese nationalists like Sun-Yat Sen and Chiang Kai-Sheck and Wang even studied and took refuge in Japan. A lot of admiration for Japan in China in the early 20th century for having avoided colonization and defeated the Russians.

Point 2 - I half agree. Without getting into details, there are political elements in Japan that still inflame feelings in China, Korea, and elsewhere with their actions and words. On the other hand, China also chooses when and how to be offended by Japan for 21st century political reasons. It isn't entirely true that Japan has never admitted to/apologized for its role in its war in China, WW2, etc here is a sampling of various statements by Japanese politicians. Whether this is adequate is a different question, and I do think Germany has done a better job dealing with its wartime record than Japan.

Point 3 - interesting. No question a major source of legitimacy for the Chinese Communist Party was its self-proclaimed role as the main opponent of Japan during the war.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.