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Subject: Naval Combat Result Inconsistency: NRT 5.1 rss

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Bindusri de Silva
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I just fought a naval battle where the odds were 3:2 -2
I am anti-French with 3 English Fleets and Nelson
My opponent has 5 French/Spanish Fleets.
Hence 3:2 -2. The result of the die roll is a 1 -2 = -1 on 3:2 table.

This results in a L = 2C & S = 0.

However I think this result is unfair to my opponent and is an error in the NRT table of results.

Note had the battle been at 1:1, a -1 results in L = 2K & S = 0.
However my opponent has better odds yet achieves a worse result.

A more consistent results from -1 at 3:2 would be L = C & S = 0.

Would welcome thoughts on this.

cheers Lakers24
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John Gant
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Which NRT are you using?

--JokerRulez
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Bindusri de Silva
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5.1 though I checked 2.0 has the same issue.
cheers Laker24
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John Gant
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I'll try to take a look at these tables tonight and let you know my thoughts.

--JokerRulez
 
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Mark McG
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Naval rules generally in W&P are not very good. Movement is far too predictable, and combat far to deadly. No fleet action EVER ended in 8-10 prizes being taken and converted into service.

For my money, the naval combat could be a die per fleet, 6 is a hit.
English get +1
Nelson gets +1

Most hits wins, loser must return to port.
Tie is a new combat if neither side returns to port.

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G W
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Yes, that's an excellent suggestion.
 
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Mark McG
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For completeness, the other concepts of this variant are that naval units (fleets & transports) can only move in Sea Area, or to port. Coastal hexes are for land units only (except ports).
This prevents some dodgy English Channel moves and interception issues.

Also, naval units have a variable movement. All can move 1 and then roll a d6 which is halved (rounded up) for extra MP, but the roll is made after the first 1MP spent. Moving groups of Naval units make a single roll. Interception is declared after the d6 roll. As Napoleon found, naval movement is far from predictable.

Finally, invasions cost 2MP, and the land unit is disembarked to a coastal hex. Transport remains in sea zone for those 2MP, but otherwise moves normally. SP can remain aboard transports from month to month. Make an attrition roll for each SP aboard ship in your Attrition Phase. A 6 results in elimination.

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G W
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I like those rules too!
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John Gant
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First let me apologize for not noticing the table reference in the subject. NRT 5.1 got it.

Next, regarding the follow-up answers others provided. Any house rules anyone wishes to create is fine of course. However, this is for the sequel that has never had a full development. Rather than rip out the entire structure I would ask people to continue to try the rules as written.

What an unfortunate die roll by the way. Ouch.

Bindrusi you seem to be suggesting a capture/prize is a worse result than a sinking. Yes? Both capture and sinking removes the vessels from your enemies OOB. However a capture also adds those to your OOB. Big advantage.

I'll try to be more responsive to any follow up question. Busy week last week.

Best regards,

--JokerRulez

 
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Mark McG
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JokerRulez wrote:

Bindrusi you seem to be suggesting a capture/prize is a worse result than a sinking. Yes? Both capture and sinking removes the vessels from your enemies OOB. However a capture also adds those to your OOB. Big advantage.


and absolutely unhistorical. From time to time individual ships got taken, and perhaps put back into service after refitting. There is never any instance when an entire fleet or squadron was taken as prizes and returned to service.

The major naval battle of the 1805-1815 period was Trafalgar, where 21 prizes were taken and 17 subsequently lost in the storm and counterattacks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Trafalgar
One of the surviving 4 prizes taken at Trafalgar by the English was the Swiftsure, originally a English 74 that had been captured and put into French service.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Swiftsure_(1787)
Despite being put back into English service after Trafalgar, it really served only as a prison hulk.
Also taken as returned to service were
San Ildefonso
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_ship_San_Ildefonso
and the San Juan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_ship_San_Juan_Nepomucen...
neither served as ships of the line again

Trafalgar was preceded by Calder's Action, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cape_Finisterre_(1805)
which was a night action, and took 2 prizes, neither returned to service.

There is a list of Napoleonic Naval actions here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Naval_battles_of_the_N...
if anyone can find an example of the mass capture of entire squadron(s) of ships of the line, I'm interested, but as far as I know, it never happened that way.
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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With regard to the capture of enemy ships, it did in fact happen historically - just exactly at Trafalgar as you mentioned. True, many of the prizes were lost, mostly in subsequent encounters with enemy ships. What that suggests to me is not that the original W&P naval CRT is out of whack (and I'm not sure that's what is being discussed here anyway - the reference is to an extensive revision by John), but rather that captured in battle should perhaps not translate 100% into ships put into service on the other side. So if you want a modification to make the results more "historical", I would suggest leaving the original W&P naval CRT results as is, but adding another layer to the resolution in which a captured enemy ship has less than a 100% probability of actually making it into service for the other side. The "captured" ship is lost from the OOB of the original owner regardless, but it might or might not actually wind up active on the other side.
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Mark McG
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the simple occasional elimination result is adequate.

The Royal Navy ended up in 1815 at the same kind of numbers of Ships of the Line as 1805 (roughly 100). 1802 was probably the critical low point. Frigates were the real shortage.

Whether there is a game functionality if preventing the rebuilding of fleets I'm less certain. Historically the French didn't try hard, and with the Spanish switching sides, naval superiority of numbers was never a possibility. Theoretically, the French could have contested the seas, but at the expense of land operations.

So if the Capture result was to keep a fleet out of the loser's force pool for a year, I think that is not unfeasible. Converting captured hulls into servicable fleets is not a historical event. If the English had fleets captured and unable to be rebuilt, that could be a significant game balance issue. For that reason, I think elimination and return to Force Pool is sufficient.
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John Gant
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Mark, this is one possible result out of dozens and is extremely, radically, unlikely. Just because you didn't see it happen during that stretch in history does not mean it was impossible.

Now, please, back to the original poster (OP).

--JokerRulez
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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The Battle of Aboukir Bay is another example of the wholesale capture of enemy ships. I haven't traced the ultimate fate of each of the French ships captured in that case, however, my impression is that with less enemy naval activity in the area the British were rather more successful than they were after Trafalgar in consolidating their prizes.
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Mark McG
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JokerRulez wrote:
Mark, this is one possible result out of dozens and is extremely, radically, unlikely. Just because you didn't see it happen during that stretch in history does not mean it was impossible.

Now, please, back to the original poster (OP).

--JokerRulez


I am concerned about the C result generally, not this specific instance
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Mark McG
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deadkenny wrote:
The Battle of Aboukir Bay is another example of the wholesale capture of enemy ships. I haven't traced the ultimate fate of each of the French ships captured in that case, however, my impression is that with less enemy naval activity in the area the British were rather more successful than they were after Trafalgar in consolidating their prizes.


Better known as the Battle of the Nile, this was 1798 (so prior to the game start). 9 ships taken, of which 3 saw front line service in the Royal Navy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_battle_at_the_Battle_o...

If you want to go back further, Glorious First of June (1794) also saw multiple ships captured. Of 7 taken, 3 were commisioned into RN service.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_battle_at_the_Glorious...

The 1790's were the nadir for the French Navy, with the Revolution removing a good proportion of the French Naval officer corps, and the Sailor's Committees holding sway over command.

In some ways it was the successful tactics of the Royal Navy that prevented prizes being put into their service. British crews fired low into the hull, which killed the crew, destroyed the guns, and riddled the hull structure. In effect, this made the prizes often unsalvageable. Wooden ships don't sink, the only way to destroy them is by fire or explosion, so if it isn't awash it can be captured, but that doesn't make then seaworthy.




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Bindusri de Silva
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"Bindrusi you seem to be suggesting a capture/prize is a worse result than a sinking. Yes? Both capture and sinking removes the vessels from your enemies OOB. However a capture also adds those to your OOB. Big advantage."

True capture is a big advantage over sinking.

If I had one more ship the odds would have been 1:1 and the -1 result is
L = 2K, S = 0 would have have been bad for my opponent.

However as I have 1 less ship the odds are 3:2 and the -1 result is
L = 2C, S = 0 which is even worse for my opponent.

The result seems out of sync with the rest of the CRT. I allowed my opponent to change the 2C result to a C as I thought this a more consistent result.

cheers Lakers24
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John Gant
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Okay. Very good.

I can't complain about your decision. Quality of you as an opponent, in my opinion.

A bit of game history.

The original WaP naval combat table make it impossible to see a result such as we had at Trafalgar. The official third edition naval rules corrected this. It is now possible, but very unlikely, as it should be.

I was mindful of that failure in the crafting of this table. I want to make it possible, but extremely unlikely, that something radical could happen. That provides the potential for radical swings.

This table was made quite some time ago by me and I can't recall much more than that. I will make a note of this, and all such questions, should this game ever get developed more fully. Thank you very much for contributing to that effort.

I think you may have identified a mistake in my thinking around the way the data is organized and displayed for this CRT. I've re-organized the table in an as yet un-released version where I spell out 2:1, 3:2, 1:1, 2:3, and 1:2 so I can be a bit more specific. That may be the solution to your issue. Email me and I'll try to find it for your future battles. johnwgant@hotmail.com

Best regards,

--JokerRulez
 
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John Gant
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Mark McG, the issue I have with your thinking is this.

After Trafalgar we saw no major engagements between the French and British fleets, nothing close to that scale. If there aren't large scale engagements how can there be examples of large scale capture of prizes?

Next, ask the question, was Trafalgar always "fated" to happen? If not and we want to make a game where Trafalgar hasn't happened yet, what is "possible" within that world? That is the game I've created.

Great thoughts overall Mark, as I've come to expect from you, but I don't agree with your conclusion in this instance.

--JokerRulez
 
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Mark McG
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I just want to remind you of page 4 of the W&P rules

"Each naval strength point represents six vessels."

so that is the threshold for captured and pressed into service.
Individually it happened, but never in the masses the combat charts indicate.
 
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Mark McG
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JokerRulez wrote:
Mark McG, the issue I have with your thinking is this.

After Trafalgar we saw no major engagements between the French and British fleets, nothing close to that scale. If there aren't large scale engagements how can there be examples of large scale capture of prizes?


well exactly.. however, I guess the precedents of the 1780's and 1790's give some indication here. Plenty of large scale actions, and significant numbers of captured vessels. Quite a number pressed into service.

Yet this neither dramatically increased the Royal Navy size, nor stopped the opponents building more ships. So what does the game mechanic represent?

JokerRulez wrote:

Next, ask the question, was Trafalgar always "fated" to happen? If not and we want to make a game where Trafalgar hasn't happened yet, what is "possible" within that world? That is the game I've created.

--JokerRulez


Was Trafalgar fated? Looking at the previous 10 years, from Glorious 1st June, the Nile, and Cape St Vincent, I'd say that it had an inevitability. Cape St. Vincent (1797) was a stark example, where 15 English ships beat 27 Spanish larger ships, taking 4 as prizes. Cpt. Nelson made his public reputation by boarding and capturing a Spanish 80 (San Nicolas) which was a rare event in battle, and then boarding the San Josef (114) from the decks of the San Nicolas. Known as "Nelson's patent bridge for boarding first rates". Both these entered English service, but did nothing significant. San Nicolas was a prison hulk by 1800.

Cape Finisterre (1805) was 15 English ships vs 14 French & 6 Spanish ships. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cape_Finisterre_(1805)[/url]. Calder took 2 Spanish ships as prizes, and was called back to the Admiralty to answer why so few. So the mood of the admiralty at the time was exceptionally aggressive. They were confident of winning the battles, and they want decisive battles.

Returning to Trafalgar, probably the best judge was Villeneuve, the French admiral. He foresaw defeat, refused orders to sail from Cadiz, and only set sail once he learned his replacement had been sent from Paris. He sailed with a fatalistic view of the outcome, which can't have enhanced the operational performance or morale of the Allied fleet. On the other hand, his replacement Rosily had never held a major command before, so it could have been worse.

Historically the Royal Navy had advantages in morale, tactics, leadership, experience and technology, and the only advantage the Allies had was numbers. Trafalgar was a great victory, and temporarily gave numerical parity. However, strategically it was the French attack on Spain and the Spanish fleet changing sides that decisively ended the threat of invasion. Also, Napoleon didn't make this a priority, switching to diplomacy and 'blockade' instead through the Continental system.

The English economy was fully stretched maintaining the fleet it had, and really the hulls weren't the problem, it was the crews, the supplies and the distances involved. Simply capturing a quantity of ships and 3 months later having a new fleet is not economically realistic

For game purposes, the problem I see is that the naval balance is thrown awry by the 'C' result. This more than any other reason is therefore my objection to the 'C' result.
 
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James Parks
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Excellent thread. I am playing through a solo campaign using the updated v4 rules and still don't think the naval system works quite right. In my campaign the Prussians entered while the French were still attempting to subdue Austria and the English have been sending troops and production points to the Prussians. So there has been some naval action as the French have tried to break out and interfere with this transport route. I am also playing with the "Napoleon vs Lloyds of London" variant but there has not been much action in the off-map areas so far.

I really think the GMT Napoleonic Wars naval system does a good job of capturing the strategic flavor of the naval combat of the era. The interception and evasion mechanics of that system seems to work much more smoothly than the War & Peace mechanism although they are somewaht similar. I wonder if somehow grafting a variant of this system onto War & Peace might produce a better simulation of the naval action of this era.
 
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John Gant
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Try the rules in the sequel James.

The Struggle Between England and France.

--JokerRulez
 
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