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Here I Stand» Forums » Rules

Subject: Initiating debates rss

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Curtis Mitchell
United States
Mount Vernon
Iowa
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Can a player initiate a debate in a language zone which has no spaces of the opposing religion? For example, if there are no Protestant spaces in England, can the Pope still start a theological debate in England (which has weaker debaters overall) and use their victory to flip spaces in Germany?
 
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Brad Miller
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From the rules:

"All spaces flipped must be in the language zone in which
the debate was held if possible. Once all spaces in the chosen
language zone are flipped to the winning denomination, additional
hits are then used to flip spaces in any other language zone.
Spaces flipped to Protestant influence must be eligible for a Reformation
attempt as specified in Step 1 of the Reformation Procedure.
Spaces flipped to Catholic influence must be eligible for
a Counter Reformation attempt as specified in Step 1 of the
Counter Reformation Procedure."
 
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Cuppa Jack
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Los Angeles
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I cannot wait to play this game.
 
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Curtis Mitchell
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Mount Vernon
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This doesn't quite answer my question -- I may not have phrased it well. What I'm wondering is whether, once Tyndale (for example) appears, the Pope can target debates at the English language zone even though there's no Protestant presence there? This seems to substantially weaken Luther's "Here I Stand" ability.
 
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Ed Beach
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Curtis: Yes that is true. If you read the bio of Tyndale in the Scenario Book, you'll see he was trying to start the Reformation in England almost single-handedly, at that time against the wishes of Henry VIII. He had some success ... until he was caught by Hapsburg agents and burnt at the stake.

The same risk and dynamic is there in the game with him appearing as the only Anglican debater on Turn 2.
 
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Curtis Mitchell
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Mount Vernon
Iowa
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Thanks for the clarification. Poor Tyndale!
 
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Albin Menant
France
PARIS
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I anderstand the historical ground, but in the end the result is highly anti historical and destroys a very interesting and historical gameplay.

The pope has all interest until reform comes to england (so for 2 or 3 turns or more) to call for debates ONLY in England, where there is a 2 points debater never defended. Even 4 debates per turn in england, always having more dice. It also makes the power of protestant here I stand card void for half the game, and make unuseful the big amount of german and French debater.

The question was good. Allowing to flip spaces in other language zones is one thing, allowing a debate when no space is protestant is another...

I think more historical issue would be to allow to flip spaces in other language zone, but half of the result. No, in the XVIth century a theological debate in angland in english doesn't have the same impact as a theological debate in Germany in German...
 
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Kristian Thy
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bbounty1 wrote:
Even 4 debates per turn in england, always having more dice.


Four debates in a turn is 12 CPs. And if the Pope can do four debates, that means he flipped no more than two spaces in the first three debates (otherwise Tyndale would have burned -> no more English debates before Cranmer appears). For the same price he could have gotten 12 Counter-Reformation attempts or 2½ VP from Saint Peter's.

When playing Luther, I always make it a point to get a North Sea port as soon as possible to make debating Tyndale less attractive, and then cross my fingers he gets burnt at the stake on the first debate.
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Chris K.
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bbounty1 wrote:
I anderstand the historical ground, but in the end the result is highly anti historical and destroys a very interesting and historical gameplay.

The pope has all interest until reform comes to england (so for 2 or 3 turns or more) to call for debates ONLY in England, where there is a 2 points debater never defended. Even 4 debates per turn in england, always having more dice. It also makes the power of protestant here I stand card void for half the game, and make unuseful the big amount of german and French debater.

The question was good. Allowing to flip spaces in other language zones is one thing, allowing a debate when no space is protestant is another...

I think more historical issue would be to allow to flip spaces in other language zone, but half of the result. No, in the XVIth century a theological debate in angland in english doesn't have the same impact as a theological debate in Germany in German...


Considering that Tyndale was historically burned at the stake for heresy and the Pope's vested interest in debating him has a great chance of causing that to happen, I would disagree that it is anti-historical.

Edit:
Also: what Kristian said.

Edit:
Also, using Here I Stand in a debate is pretty much the worst possible use of the card. Even just using it as 5 CP is often stronger.
 
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Kristian Thy
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chrisdk wrote:
Considering that Tyndale was historically burned at the stake for heresy and the Pope's vested interest in debating him has a great chance of causing that to happen, I would disagree that it is anti-historical.


You could argue that the four-debates-in-a-turn scenario is an alternate history where the Pope realizes that it suits his purposes better to not burn Tyndale at the stake, but rather let him run around Germany trying to raise support for the reformation in England, thereby causing diplomatic embarrassment to the German princes who have to side publicly with Catholicism.
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Evgeny Reznikov
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Or spends a great deal of church resources trying to ineffectually prosecute Tyndale's heresy, while ignoring other pressing concerns.
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