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Subject: Chummed Himitsu Bako rss

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S. R.
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Am I right, that I cant take Himitsu to the hand after its chummed to deal the chum damage, cauze the runner can interact first?
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Andy Mills
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Ra1d wrote:
Am I right, that I cant take Himitsu to the hand after its chummed to deal the chum damage, cauze the runner can interact first?


You can trigger its ability, but it'll be after the Runner has had the opportunity to break its subroutines.
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Andrew Keddie
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I hope I don't sound like an ass, but there was another topic only a few posts down asking exactly this, which has already been answered.
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Andy Mills
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CommissarFeesh wrote:
I hope I don't sound like an ass, but there was another topic only a few posts down asking exactly this, which has already been answered.


Yep, literally 2 threads below this one as of this moment.

Chum + Himitsu-Bako?
 
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Kevin D.
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I think the way you can tell that a subroutine has not been broken is that it fires (assuming the runner encounters the ICE).
 
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Trevor Schadt
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Maghd wrote:
I think the way you can tell that a subroutine has not been broken is that it fires (assuming the runner encounters the ICE).
Incorrect. If that were the case, Chum > Data Raven and Chum > Tollbooth would not be viable trap combos (both of which has been established multiple times as viable).

If the Runner encounters a piece of ICE, and doesn't break a subroutine on that piece of ice -- whether that is because the ice was trashed or otherwise removed during the encounter, because the Runner bypasses the ICE after encountering it, because the run was ended in the middle of the encounter, or for any other reason -- the subroutine is not broken. And if the subroutine is not broken, Chum fires.

I think the way you can tell that a subroutine has been broken is that the Runner has used a paid ability (usually on an icebreaker program) to break the subroutine. If no such ability was used, the subroutine has not been broken.
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Leonid G
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2097 wrote:
Either you bounce the Bako before Chum even affects it (so it’s the next ice, if any, that’s chummed), or you can bounce the Bako after the runner has had a chance to break it and avoid getting hit by chum damage. Is this a correct interpretation?
If so, then yeah, scenario 1 is pretty straight-forward.

This is the case. See Chum clarification in FAQ and priority rules.

2097 wrote:
2. In this scenario, however, the runner declines to break the routines, or cannot. I want to let them through because I have a trap behind.

This one's a bit trickier.
1) Chum fires, targeting Bako
2) Runner encounters Bako. Runner has priority, but chooses not to break Bako sub.
3) Priority passes to Corp. Corp bounces Bako at this moment, but since Chum's subroutine target (Bako) after this ability use is no longer present in play, Chum trigger does not fire. So:
2097 wrote:
Can I both have the chum damage dealt and them let through?

No.
Quote:
Does it work with a triggered Whirlpool? Does it work without Whirlpool (or can they just jack out—which, otoh, can mean delicious mindgames)?

Irrelevant.
 
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Hannes Sörensson
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Metalize wrote:

3) Priority passes to Corp. Corp bounces Bako at this moment, but since Chum's subroutine target (Bako) after this ability use is no longer present in play, Chum trigger does not fire.


This seems entirely unfounded and, I think, wrong.

My interpretation is this: there was an encounter with a piece of ice in which not all subroutines were broken; the encounter ended, so Chum fires. How the encounter ended, whether through an ETR subroutine, with the runner continuing past the ice or by bouncing Himitsu Bako to hand shouldn't matter, really.
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Tim Meng
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Metalize wrote:

1) Chum fires, targeting Bako
2) Runner encounters Bako. Runner has priority, but chooses not to break Bako sub.
3) Priority passes to Corp. Corp bounces Bako at this moment, but since Chum's subroutine target (Bako) after this ability use is no longer present in play, Chum trigger does not fire. So:
2097 wrote:
Can I both have the chum damage dealt and them let through?

No.


This is incorrect. As per the FAQ, Chum does not have 'targets', only conditionals that need to be met in order to operate.

If Chum's subroutine triggers, the first condition that it waits for is:

Has the Runner encountered another piece of ice in this run?
- If yes, that ice receives a +2 strength boost, and the next condition is now active.
- If no, then the effect fizzles when the run ends.

The second condition that Chum waits for is:

Has the encounter with that ice ended with at least one unbroken subroutine, or has at least one subroutine activated on that ice?
- If yes, do 3 net damage.
- If no, nothing happens.

Himitsu-bako does not need to remain in play for Chum to still trigger its damage, so it is possible to remove the ETR subroutine while still doing Chum's 3 damage.

In the second scenario with no Whirlpool, however, the Runner still has the opportunity to jack out before entering the server, so you could not force them into accessing a Junebug simply by removing Bako.
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Leonid G
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'FAQ page 5' wrote:
Chum deals its net damage the first time either of the following occur during an encounter with the next piece of ice:
1) a subroutine resolves
2) the run ends


Since encounter with Bako happened, Chum's subroutine's target is Bako. Since Corp bounced Bako before subroutine was resolved (to let Runner inside the server for whatever reason), Chum does not fire.
 
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Andy Mills
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Metalize wrote:
'FAQ page 5' wrote:
Chum deals its net damage the first time either of the following occur during an encounter with the next piece of ice:
1) a subroutine resolves
2) the run ends


Since encounter with Bako happened, Chum's subroutine's target is Bako. Since Corp bounced Bako before subroutine was resolved (to let Runner inside the server for whatever reason), Chum does not fire.


The FAQ that you are citing does not support your position (in fact, it suggests the opposite - the run will end without subroutines being broken.) Chum fires if the encountered ice is trashed by Parasite, why should this be any different?
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Scott C
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In the event that the Runner does not break the Himitsu Bako, but the Corp wants to retrieve it, the end result is the same as if the ice Chum was affecting was Parasited and the Runner Datasuckers it down to 0.

Namely, the ice was encountered, but is no longer there, yet no subroutines were broken.

IIRC, Chum does damage on the Parasite example.
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Kevin Jones
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As far as timing goes, I'd say either Himitsu Bako needs to be recalled at the start, before the runner can or wants to break the ICE. If it's recalled, there is no ICE to trigger Chum's subroutine and the run progresses to the next card; otherwise, the runner has to break the subroutines or take the damage.

As far as timing windows go, whenever Corporate Troubleshooter triggers (I think that's the right name, the one that boosts an ICE's strength) is the same window Himitsu Bako triggers, unless it's after the runner has already passed it (and Chum has already triggered or not).
 
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Ben Finkel
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Kaffis wrote:
In the event that the Runner does not break the Himitsu Bako, but the Corp wants to retrieve it, the end result is the same as if the ice Chum was affecting was Parasited and the Runner Datasuckers it down to 0.

Namely, the ice was encountered, but is no longer there, yet no subroutines were broken.

IIRC, Chum does damage on the Parasite example.


But that's contingent on the runner not breaking Himitsu Bako - so why retrieve it and not just end the run (still doing the 3 damage)? There's no opportunity for the Corp to retrieve Himitsu Bako before the Runner can break the subroutine, which means there's essentially no reason to retrieve it at all during the encounter.
 
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Kevin Jones
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trekkienz wrote:
Himitsu-bako does not need to remain in play for Chum to still trigger its damage, so it is possible to remove the ETR subroutine while still doing Chum's 3 damage.
I don't see this happening. I'm pretty sure the trigger to recall Himitsu-Bako is before the runner officially encounters the ice, so the ice is gone before it needs to be triggered. I'll have to double-check the FAQ's timing chart, also located in the more recent rulebooks.
 
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Andrew Keddie
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Rognik wrote:
trekkienz wrote:
Himitsu-bako does not need to remain in play for Chum to still trigger its damage, so it is possible to remove the ETR subroutine while still doing Chum's 3 damage.
I don't see this happening. I'm pretty sure the trigger to recall Himitsu-Bako is before the runner officially encounters the ice, so the ice is gone before it needs to be triggered. I'll have to double-check the FAQ's timing chart, also located in the more recent rulebooks.


There isn't a trigger for retrieving it, it's a paid ability. As others have pointed out, this means it CAN be done after encounter before subroutines resolve, but only AFTER the runner had had a chance to break subroutines (as breaking subroutines is ALSO a paid ability, and the runner has priority).

Those people quoting the FAQ should also note that it actually contradicts itself. The Femme Fatale and Chum example shows that Chum damage DOES fire even if the run continues without a subroutine firing, provided the conditions were met (ICE was encountered and subroutines were not broken).

Assuming the runner actually does facecheck Baku after not breaking Chum and cannot break, then yes, the Corp can take back to hand, the runner takes three damage and the run continues.
 
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Anton R.
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Metalize wrote:

1) Chum fires, targeting Bako
2) Runner encounters Bako. Runner has priority, but chooses not to break Bako sub.
3) Priority passes to Corp. Corp bounces Bako at this moment, but since Chum's subroutine target (Bako) after this ability use is no longer present in play, Chum trigger does not fire.


Do you think that trashing ICE with parasite/datasuckers also prevent damage from chum?
 
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Anton R.
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'FAQ page 5' wrote:
Chum deals its net damage the first time either of the following occur during an encounter with the next piece of ice:
1) a subroutine resolves
2) the run ends


I assume that this should be written as

1) a subroutine resolves
2) the encounter ends
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Scott C
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Azeltir wrote:
Kaffis wrote:
In the event that the Runner does not break the Himitsu Bako, but the Corp wants to retrieve it, the end result is the same as if the ice Chum was affecting was Parasited and the Runner Datasuckers it down to 0.

Namely, the ice was encountered, but is no longer there, yet no subroutines were broken.

IIRC, Chum does damage on the Parasite example.


But that's contingent on the runner not breaking Himitsu Bako - so why retrieve it and not just end the run (still doing the 3 damage)? There's no opportunity for the Corp to retrieve Himitsu Bako before the Runner can break the subroutine, which means there's essentially no reason to retrieve it at all during the encounter.

Nobody's arguing that it's a sensible play. If you hit the Runner with Chum damage (whether you pull Himitsu Bako up or not, because they didn't break the ETR), letting them access anyways is probably not a gamble they'd take often. But that's how the rules would play out if you did decide to do it.
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Andy Mills
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2097 wrote:
and still no one clear consensus answer here


I'm not sure why you're saying that - the rules regarding the interaction aren't ambiguous. If the runner encounters Himitsu-Bako, the Corp can bounce it after the Runner's had a chance to do paid abilities. Alternately, the Corp can bounce it before the Runner encounters it.
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Kevin Jones
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manydills wrote:
2097 wrote:
and still no one clear consensus answer here


I'm not sure why you're saying that - the rules regarding the interaction aren't ambiguous. If the runner encounters Himitsu-Bako, the Corp can bounce it after the Runner's had a chance to do paid abilities. Alternately, the Corp can bounce it before the Runner encounters it.

If those are the only two cases, then either:
1) the runner uses their paid abilities and breaks the subroutine, avoiding Chum's trigger.
2) the corp recalls Himitsu Bako, forcing Chum to activate on the next ICE.
Either way, the corp can't recall it AND have it trigger Chum's ability. Seems like a solid resolution to me, unless I've missed something.
 
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Ben Finkel
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Rognik wrote:
manydills wrote:
2097 wrote:
and still no one clear consensus answer here


I'm not sure why you're saying that - the rules regarding the interaction aren't ambiguous. If the runner encounters Himitsu-Bako, the Corp can bounce it after the Runner's had a chance to do paid abilities. Alternately, the Corp can bounce it before the Runner encounters it.

If those are the only two cases, then either:
1) the runner uses their paid abilities and breaks the subroutine, avoiding Chum's trigger.
2) the corp recalls Himitsu Bako, forcing Chum to activate on the next ICE.
Either way, the corp can't recall it AND have it trigger Chum's ability. Seems like a solid resolution to me, unless I've missed something.


Case 3: the runner encounters Himitsu-Bako but doesn't break it (either by choice or from insufficient breakers or whatever). The corp can then retrieve the ICE and do 3 net damage, or let it remain and do 3 net damage and end the run.
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