Richard Hutnik
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Check out where Arty is on the IAGO Leaderboard:
http://iagoweb.com/records/ratings/leaderboard/

He, by far, has the highest rating for play across a range of games, has the single highest ELO rating at a game, also also is in the top 10 in win percentage.

On this note, if anyone wants to suggest someone else, please do so, and give evidence why here. Also, on this note, if anyone wants to contribute to getting things in place to make it so, please speak up here.
 
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Russ Williams
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Random observation looking at that page: how is there a 1.65% draw rate for Amazons?

I guess in principle a player could propose a draw in midgame and the other accept it? Weird.

Oh, this ties into the OP, since I see 2 of Arty's Amazons games had draws...!
http://iagoweb.com/records/games/amazons
 
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russ wrote:
Random observation looking at that page: how is there a 1.65% draw rate for Amazons?

I guess in principle a player could propose a draw in midgame and the other accept it? Weird.

Oh, this ties into the OP, since I see 2 of Arty's Amazons games had draws...!
http://iagoweb.com/records/games/amazons


All here is based upon what play showed, not what one would expect.
 
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russ wrote:
Random observation looking at that page: how is there a 1.65% draw rate for Amazons?

I guess in principle a player could propose a draw in midgame and the other accept it? Weird.

Oh, this ties into the OP, since I see 2 of Arty's Amazons games had draws...!
http://iagoweb.com/records/games/amazons


I think I recall that there's an "agree to draw" option for iggc games. I think. I've never used it.
 
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Maurizio De Leo
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While I agree that Arty is a very strong abstract generalist, I think that the sampling size of the Iago leader board is too small.

I don't want to minimize the leaderboard importance (after all I'm number 10 on that list ) but a better comparison would include also other sites, with greater number of played games. One possible reason Arty classify so highly is that he probably has to test most of the games he implements in his site.

Some examples of sites that could be added to the ranking are goldtoken.com, itsyourturn.com and littlegolem.com.

Speaking of little golem, I think a good start for the title of best Abstract Generalist is this classification:

http://golem.tasuki.org/?variation=NoluckNowordgames


As a side note, there may be (and probably there are) many great abstract strategy player who simply don't bother to link their accounts to a common Iago account.
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Sites have to agree to do the RSS feed of the results to the IAGO site. Without this, the results can't get picked up. I would be in favor of it, but unless they correspond and agree, it doesn't happen. Also, people have to register for the site to get rated. There is no cost to do this actually.
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docreason wrote:
Sites have to agree to do the RSS feed of the results to the IAGO site. Without this, the results can't get picked up. I would be in favor of it, but unless they correspond and agree, it doesn't happen. Also, people have to register for the site to get rated. There is no cost to do this actually.


Well, someone might scrape leaderboards rather than going through RSS
 
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milomilo122 wrote:
docreason wrote:
Sites have to agree to do the RSS feed of the results to the IAGO site. Without this, the results can't get picked up. I would be in favor of it, but unless they correspond and agree, it doesn't happen. Also, people have to register for the site to get rated. There is no cost to do this actually.


Well, someone might scrape leaderboards rather than going through RSS


Players need to register on the IAGO Website, to be able to be tracked and rated, and their ID number, which the XML file contains on the site, would also need to be set up. Also, the way it works to do ELO, needs to track each game played and compared to each player. Overall ELO won't do that. The sites also need to buy in, to get players to show up at IAGO.

 
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docreason wrote:
milomilo122 wrote:
docreason wrote:
Sites have to agree to do the RSS feed of the results to the IAGO site. Without this, the results can't get picked up. I would be in favor of it, but unless they correspond and agree, it doesn't happen. Also, people have to register for the site to get rated. There is no cost to do this actually.


Well, someone might scrape leaderboards rather than going through RSS


Players need to register on the IAGO Website, to be able to be tracked and rated, and their ID number, which the XML file contains on the site, would also need to be set up. Also, the way it works to do ELO, needs to track each game played and compared to each player. Overall ELO won't do that. The sites also need to buy in, to get players to show up at IAGO.


Well, at the point where you're adding up/averaging/whatever ELO scores from different games, why not do the same thing with ELO scores from different websites? Mathematically, aren't the two equally meaningless?
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milomilo122 wrote:
docreason wrote:
Sites have to agree to do the RSS feed of the results to the IAGO site. Without this, the results can't get picked up. I would be in favor of it, but unless they correspond and agree, it doesn't happen. Also, people have to register for the site to get rated. There is no cost to do this actually.


Well, someone might scrape leaderboards rather than going through RSS

How would it know that user X at site foo.com is the same as user Y at site bar.com? I think users have to intentionally actively register for this to work as a pooled database of results across multiple sites.
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All ranking systems are artifacts of the conditions of play and selection of players. There's some entertainment value in leaderboards, but as a practical guide to playing ability, they're nearly worthless.
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ddyer wrote:
All ranking systems are artifacts of the conditions of play and selection of players. There's some entertainment value in leaderboards, but as a practical guide to playing ability, they're nearly worthless.

Then why do higher-rated players tend to win tournaments more often?

"Nearly worthless" is a pretty radical claim about all ranking systems, at least at go servers, in my experience!

Someone a few ranks higher than me at KGS will pretty reliably beat me in an even game, and similarly I would pretty reliably beat someone a few ranks weaker.

Or are you only talking about more obscure less well-studied abstracts?

I've still found a big rating difference with an opponent who's played a lot to be a fairly reliable guide in many (but indeed not all) games, (e.g. significantly higher rated players in Hex, Epaminondas, Homeworlds, Hive, Zertz, Twixt do tend to beat me...)

For games which people simply haven't played much, I agree the ratings are less useful - but then with few plays, there probably aren't large rating differences between players anyway, I suppose.
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ddyer wrote:

Or are you only talking about more obscure less well-studied abstracts?

Yes, exactly. Ratings systems can work very well if the pool of players is deep and the games are played under comparable conditions.
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What I get from this thread, and the other one about IAGO, is if by some miracle, there could be a large enough pool of generalists who were involved, doing tournaments and contributing, then MAYBE having an ELO rating across a range of games (and other ratings) and other thing could be of value and interest. But, because of the lack of a critical mass, no one is going to take any of this seriously. So idea is to make something large materialize out of nothing, and then something would follow. Until then, everyone has their own sacred form of what should be, which is of greater value than what is.

Anyone figure out how to make this so, you will unlock a solution that could benefit western civilization.
 
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Richard,

Just to clarify that my reply wasn't meant to belittle Iago or to put down in any way your work on abstracts.
I greatly appreciate all the people that work to diffuse our common passion (you, Dave Dyer, Arty, etc.)
Having tried to organize "generalist" abstract tournaments (nonsolonumeri) and being part of an abstract games association (progetto abstrakta) I know how difficult it is to actually "do" something instead of simply waiting and criticizing other people.

I simply have a personal issue with the very relaxed use of "best in the world" in today society, in particular in the USA.
I think any "best in the world" should satisfy some minimum requirements of participation and general public interest. It is the same reason I dislike the "world abstract championship" of the Mind Sport Olympics in UK (which instead I like a lot as a convention).

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megamau wrote:
Richard,

Just to clarify that my reply wasn't meant to belittle Iago or to put down in any way your work on abstracts.
I greatly appreciate all the people that work to diffuse our common passion (you, Dave Dyer, Arty, etc.)
Having tried to organize "generalist" abstract tournaments (nonsolonumeri) and being part of an abstract games association (progetto abstrakta) I know how difficult it is to actually "do" something instead of simply waiting and criticizing other people.

I simply have a personal issue with the very relaxed use of "best in the world" in today society, in particular in the USA.
I think any "best in the world" should satisfy some minimum requirements of participation and general public interest. It is the same reason I dislike the "world abstract championship" of the Mind Sport Olympics in UK (which instead I like a lot as a convention).


I figured I would put that out there, because I haven't really seen any other measure out there, besides the IAGO Leaderboard, to measure how good players are. The sample size isn't the largest, but I keep seeing Arty popping up on it, with that much of a differential. I am all in favor of something more universally accepted would manifest here.

Well, looks like it is back to the billion dollar question of how to make it so. I am up for ideas here, to get something more universally selected. I will also like to get some info on progetto abstrakta. Any info would be appreciated. I will start another thread asking about it. The thread is here:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1050780/what-is-progetto-abs...

The MSO, back in the day, WAS the big top mindsports event in the world. I would say the World Mind Sports Games now is probably the largest, although it gets zero media coverage. The WMSG actually has ties to Olympic organizations so it gets some pull.

Anyhow, anyone want to work to help find the best abstract strategy generalist in the world? If so, please feel free to say yes.

 
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docreason wrote:
Anyhow, anyone want to work to help find the best abstract strategy generalist in the world?

Judging from the title of the thread that would boil down to "where's Arty"?
 
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christianF wrote:
docreason wrote:
Anyhow, anyone want to work to help find the best abstract strategy generalist in the world?

Judging from the title of the thread that would boil down to "where's Arty"?


Wait, is he not hanging out at the iggamecenter site? I was under the impression he is doing his own thing there.
 
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