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Subject: Tournament Rules: can I ask judge for card text? rss

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mplain
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Official tournament rules say:
Quote:
Referencing outside material and information during a match is prohibited, except for official rule documents

Official FAQ has images of certain cards.

Can I call a judge and ask him to clarify card text/cost for me? To show me a card (or it's image) that is not in the FAQ?

Is it legal to reference card database during a match?
 
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Andy Mills
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mplain wrote:
Official tournament rules say:
Quote:
Referencing outside material and information during a match is prohibited, except for official rule documents

Official FAQ has images of certain cards.

Can I call a judge and ask him to clarify card text/cost for me? To show me a card (or it's image) that is not in the FAQ?

Is it legal to reference card database during a match?


You can ask for clarification regarding card text. You can't ask what the cost of a card is. You can't ask for the image of a card.

However, I think that if you refer to the FAQ and the FAQ contains images of those cards, it's a "happy accident" and you can take advantage of that.

And you absolutely cannot reference a card database during a match.
 
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Roberta Yang
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If it's a card shown in an official rules document, then sure, take a look at that document. If it's not, then no, that's material from outside of the official rules documents. Either way, sites like cardgamedb are not official rules documents and are off-limits.
 
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2097 wrote:
As those who didn’t put me on ignore a long time ago know, I’ve been a long time negative of games with too much HTI — hidden but trackable information. Luckily, I’ve had so much fun with trick-taking games like Ninety-Nine that I started to like it again. Netrunner has sick amounts of HTI. It happens to be things that easily stick in the memory (unlike more abstract numbers like “How many chips does my opponents in No Thanks have”) because the thematic hooks are so strong.


I agree that games which use HTI where it isn't the main idea in the game are frustrating. (I don't count No Thanks because I think it's basically the point of the game.)

It's a little different in Netrunner IMHO because the HTI falls into:

1. Information which becomes stale quickly. If you access a piece of ICE out of HQ and next turn I install a piece of ICE, now you don't know whether it's still in HQ. So asking me "Hey remind me what piece of ICE I accessed out of HQ last turn?" is a bogus question.

2. Information about cards that might not be in the current game. Sure, it might be helpful to know what AP & Destroyer ICE aren't Sentries before you make a run, but the game could grind to a halt if you're allowed to consult the ever-growing list of cards before every move right?
 
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TK Number 3
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DrTall wrote:
but the game could grind to a halt if you're allowed to consult the ever-growing list of cards before every move right?


Pretty much this. Hmm, corp has 8 credits, let me just check the full list of ice he could rez before I make a run.......
 
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Gregory Pettigrew
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TKNumber3 wrote:
DrTall wrote:
but the game could grind to a halt if you're allowed to consult the ever-growing list of cards before every move right?


Pretty much this. Hmm, corp has 8 credits, let me just check the full list of ice he could rez before I make a run.......


Different game is different, but this was not a problem in VTES.
 
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Ian Toltz
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For some reason, I thought this question was about Magic (I'm not even subscribed to Magic on BGG...) and I was really confused. I was pretty sure that the full text of cards is something judges could help with, and isn't Oracle itself (a complete list of every card ever printed and its up-to-date text and rulings) a rules document?

Then I realized that this is ANR, and not Magic.

Why am I replying at all, then? Because this is a silly ruling. Netrunner's already a memory-intensive game as it is, I don't think people should be penalized for not remembering the details of a particular card.
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Kevin Jones
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mplain wrote:
Can I call a judge and ask him to clarify card text/cost for me?
You can ask about any card that has been played.

Quote:
To show me a card (or it's image) that is not in the FAQ?
As said before, no, unless the card is on the table. Why you'd ask about a card you cannot physically reference is beyond me.

Quote:
Is it legal to reference card database during a match?
That is outside sources, so no. The only reference you can make is to your memory, or the rule book. I don't know if it's legal to reference the FAQ in a match, but I don't see why not.

Basically, the TO is there to settle any disputes about the rules. I'd recommend becoming familiar with the cards in your deck first, then quickly adapting to unusual cards you find in your opponent's deck.
 
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mplain
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Asmor wrote:
isn't Oracle itself a rules document?
Asmor wrote:
Then I realized that this is ANR, and not Magic.

That's pretty much why I asked the original question.

Rognik wrote:
Why you'd ask about a card you cannot physically reference is beyond me.

For exapmle, in case I don't remember whether Scorched Earth costs 3 or 4. Might be pretty important, happened during last tournament.



Another matter:

If we are organizing a tournament for 16-20 players and we would like to comply with official FFG requirements, but it is still just a local monthly tournament (like FNM, not Regionals or anything, friendly play), than do we require a dedicated TO/judge/scorekeeper for the event? Dedicated in the sence that he will not participate as a player himself.

Tournament Rules wrote:
Tournament Organizer Participation
The Tournament Oragnizer (TO) may participate in a tournament for which he or she is responsible only if there is a second tournament organizer present. This second TO must be present and announced at the beginning of the tournament, and is responsible for all rulings for games in which the primary TO is playing.

It says here "second TO must be present" but doesn't specify that second TO cannot participate. So, either one didecated TO or two participating TOs?
And it says nothing about judges and scorekeepers.

Tournament Rules wrote:
TO’s and Judges for premier championship tournaments (Regionals, Nationals, and Worlds) are expected to commit their full attention to organizing and judging the event, and therefore are not permitted to participate in their own Regional, National, or World Championship events as players.
Out tournament is not Regional, as i said.

So, for a small local tournament:

1. Do we need a dedicated TO/Judge who will not participate?
2. Can they be the same person?
3. What about scorekeepers?
4. Does the amount of players matter?
 
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Kevin Jones
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mplain wrote:
Rognik wrote:
Why you'd ask about a card you cannot physically reference is beyond me.

For exapmle, in case I don't remember whether Scorched Earth costs 3 or 4. Might be pretty important, happened during last tournament.
It's 3, and the only way to learn this is to memorize it. The TO is there to clarify rules or issues, not help you play better. Better way to cope with Scorched Earth is either keep 4+ cards in your hand, or avoid getting tagged.

Quote:
It says here "second TO must be present" but doesn't specify that second TO cannot participate. So, either one didecated TO or two participating TOs?
And it says nothing about judges and scorekeepers.
I think if you have 2 TOs, one must be free each round to move about and answer questions. So both can play, but not at the same time. I could be wrong on this. Of course, if you have judges who aren't TOs, I suppose the TOs can play, so long as they are available to be consulted.

Quote:
So, for a small local tournament:

1. Do we need a dedicated TO/Judge who will not participate?
2. Can they be the same person?
3. What about scorekeepers?
4. Does the amount of players matter?

1. It's better if you have one for the whole tournament, but not just one.
2. Yes.
3. You don't need a dedicated scorekeeper. Most TOs keep score as well.
4. Having an even number is best, but there's rules for byes.
 
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mplain
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Rognik, dude, seriously, I'm not a n00b. I know to keep my hand of 4+ cards and stuff.

I illustrated why someone would need info on cards not present on the table, and referenced MTG where that info is available on request. I just want to know if it's also legally available in Netrunner, I don't really need justifications and opinions.

The question #4 "Does the amount of players matter?" is [obviously] meant as 'does it matter for the purpose of requiring a dedicated TO/judge?' and has nothing to do with byes.

"It's better.." is not quite the answer I am hoping for. Can we or Can we not, according to FFG floor rules, hold a tournament with only one TO/Judge who is also participating in that tournament as a player?

Thanks.
 
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Allan Clements
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Personally, if they were playing me and asked me what something cost (either because they had seen it or because they were wondering about it), I would tell the answer if I knew.

I think the reason you aren't allowed to consult a card list, is because of how much time if would take if you continually asked to see information about cards.

If you had enough credits to break a 3 strength sentry and there was one ice unrezzed in a server, would you be allowed to consult a list of cards, to count how many ice there are which could be strength 3 that the corp can afford to rez?

New players who don't remember or don't even know what half the cards are, are going to do worse.
 
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Anton R.
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I had a problem of a kind at last tournament. I got access to RnD and look at Power Grid Overload. I didn't check its texting. After several turns I wondered if there was "after succesful run" or any "run".

Small quiz, can you answer without looking at text of the cards?: what kind of run is required for plaiing next cards:
1) SEA source
2) Neural EMP
3) Power Grid Overload.


Btw there are a lot of opponents in OCTGN that forget about any kind of requirments on thees cards.

edit: spelling
 
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Allan Clements
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gozik wrote:
I had a problem of a kind at last tournament. I got access to RnD and look at Power Grid Overload. I didn't check its texting. After several turns I wondered if there was "after succesful run" or any "run".

Small quiz, can you answer without looking at text of the cards?: what kind of run is required for playing next cards:
1) SEA source
2) Neural EMP
3) Power Grid Overload.


Btw there are a lot of opponents in OCTGN that forget about any kind of requirments on thees cards.

edit: spelling


Spoiler (click to reveal)
1. successful run 2. run 3. successful run


I have seen many people forget that part, even when holding the card in their hand. So looking up cards is not exactly helping
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mplain
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Got insta-answers from Lukas!
mplain wrote:
Hello Lukas!

We are organizing a local tournament and I'd like to clear up two things:

1. Is it okay if the only TO/Judge is also participating in the tournament as a player? Or do we need a dedicated one, or two of them?

2. Can a player call for a judge and ask him questions like "What's the cost of Scorched Earth?" or "How much damage does Scorched Earth deal?" and the like? Is card text an available-upon-request info during a match?

Thanks for your time!

Lukas wrote:
Glad to hear it!

1. Yes, that is okay. For large events like Regionals it is best to have a dedicated TO.

2. A judge should not give out information regarding card abilities or card costs. A card database cannot be referenced during a match, only the Core Set rulebook and the FAQ.

Hope that helps,

--
Lukas Litzsinger


Lukas is such a nice guy!
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Gregory Pettigrew
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mplain wrote:
So, for a small local tournament:

1. Do we need a dedicated TO/Judge who will not participate?
2. Can they be the same person?
3. What about scorekeepers?
4. Does the amount of players matter?


1. No.
2. Yes.
3. Yes.
4. No.

Though it should be noted that if the TO/Judge does play, they should pick two additional Judges in case a ruling is needed in a match between two Judges.
 
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You could always just ask your opponent about the card in question, maybe they know.

I also feel like this problem is one that new players won't have. They won't necessarily even know what they don't know, and may make some judgement lapses, like not floating enough cards against Jinteki. In any game I know, that's called learning by experience.

I'm not sure how you expect to know the cards before you know the cards?
 
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