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Mage Knight Board Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Concentrate used on Maximal Effect rss

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Jordan Franklin
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I've searched the forums, and it seems there have been many questions on Maximal Effect being used on Concentrate, but never the other way around.

If you use Concentrate on Maximal Effect, then use Maximal Effect to play say, swiftness, does the +2 bonus from Concentrate apply to the swiftness card? If so, does it apply to both instances of swiftness?

I discussed with friends, we decided you do not get the +2 bonus because the text of Maximal Effect itself does not give attack, block, move, or influence, but it seems it can potentially be interpreted either way.

Anyone disagree?
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Will Reaves
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I would agree with the "no +2 bonus effect." Empowered concentration only concerns itself the the empowered effect on the card it is used to play. If that card leads to other cards being played, the bonus would not apply to those cards.
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David desJardins
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Quietuss wrote:
I've searched the forums, and it seems there have been many questions on Maximal Effect being used on Concentrate, but never the other way around.


It's certainly been discussed before, but I think it comes up less often than the other only because it's more clear. Playing advanced Maximal Effect (with red mana), trashing Swiftness, gives you Ranged Attack 6. So using advanced Concentration (with green mana) to play advanced Maximal Effect, trashing Swiftness, gives you Ranged Attack 8.
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Alison Mandible
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Playing advanced Maximal Effect (with red mana), trashing Swiftness, gives you Ranged Attack 6. So using advanced Concentration (with green mana) to play advanced Maximal Effect, trashing Swiftness, gives you Ranged Attack 8.


That surprises me, given this in the FAQ:

FAQ wrote:
Q: When I play another card with cards like Concentration, Will Focus and Maximal Effect, how does this work with resistances?
A: The second card played is what matters since the first card is just making the second card better. So, if you play Maximal Effect with Ice Shield on an enemy with Fire Resistance - the Ice Shield special effect still happens. But not if the enemy has Ice Resistance.


I think I had mentally shorthanded that as "the effect still comes from the boosted card, not from Maximal Effect". But if that were the right way to look at it, it would seem like you don't get the +2 from Concentration.

Am I just getting led astray by trying to apply the MtG-ish notion of effects having a "source"?
 
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David desJardins
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grasa_total wrote:
Am I just getting led astray by trying to apply the MtG-ish notion of effects having a "source"?


Could be. I don't claim to know anything about MtG rules.
 
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Jordan Franklin
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Quietuss wrote:
I've searched the forums, and it seems there have been many questions on Maximal Effect being used on Concentrate, but never the other way around.


It's certainly been discussed before, but I think it comes up less often than the other only because it's more clear. Playing advanced Maximal Effect (with red mana), trashing Swiftness, gives you Ranged Attack 6. So using advanced Concentration (with green mana) to play advanced Maximal Effect, trashing Swiftness, gives you Ranged Attack 8.


It's interesting that you think this is clear cut, especially since you think the +2 bonus should be applied. I would think that would be the difficult side to argue since Concentration says "play the stronger effect of a card (in this case Maximal Effect), if that card (in reference to Maximal Effect) gives you move, attack, block or influence (Maximal Effect technically gives you none of those things on it's own) add +2.

I'd like to see you flesh out your argument a bit more, or link to a forum thread that has a more in depth discussion. I couldn't find one so sorry if I missed it.
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David desJardins
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Quietuss wrote:
It's interesting that you think this is clear cut, especially since you think the +2 bonus should be applied. I would think that would be the difficult side to argue since Concentration says "play the stronger effect of a card (in this case Maximal Effect), if that card (in reference to Maximal Effect) gives you move, attack, block or influence (Maximal Effect technically gives you none of those things on it's own) add +2.

I'd like to see you flesh out your argument a bit more, or link to a forum thread that has a more in depth discussion. I couldn't find one so sorry if I missed it.


I think this answers your question:

Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread

Let me know if you still disagree and I will say more.
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Jordan Franklin
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PaulGrogan wrote:

Now then, something simple:
You play maximal effect with card that gives you Attack 2.
It is like it is written Attack 2, Attack 2, Attack 2. on the Maximal effect card.


Thanks for the link David. Based on Paul's comments, it seems that the +2 bonus would be applied as you stated. I'm not sure if I'd concede that it is not arguable, but I will always let Paul's insight trump my own. It's unfortunate too... adding the +2 in my solo game would have allowed me to win at the end of round 5. Instead I had to start the 6th, losing 30 bonus points cry
 
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Alison Mandible
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DaviddesJ wrote:
I think this answers your question:

Re: Official Rules FAQ Thread


Oh, nice. That seems unequivocal, and appears to be straight from Vlaada's mouth.

Thanks for the link.

It also seems like that makes the Maximal Effect -> Ice Shield ruling is the odd one out -- if it's like Ice Shield's text is written twice on Maximal Effect, then the armor reduction should work on enemies with Ice Resistance and NOT ones with Fire Resistance. I guess if it bugs me that much, I can just play it that way and see if it's fun.
 
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David desJardins
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I find it hard to visualize how making your Ice Shield twice as icy could cause it to affect enemies that are unaffected by cold, but not those that are resistant to heat....
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Alison Mandible
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DaviddesJ wrote:
I find it hard to visualize how making your Ice Shield twice as icy could cause it to affect enemies that are unaffected by cold, but not those that are resistant to heat....


I feel like this part of the theme doesn't hold up under too much examination (see also Demolish -- why are heat-resistant enemies immune to flying debris?). And theming metamagic is even more subject to handwaving. Why does Mana Bolt use blue mana? Dunno, it just does.
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David desJardins
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grasa_total wrote:
I feel like this part of the theme doesn't hold up under too much examination (see also Demolish -- why are heat-resistant enemies immune to flying debris?). And theming metamagic is even more subject to handwaving. Why does Mana Bolt use blue mana? Dunno, it just does.


Vlaada has discussed this before and personally I find his explanations (e.g., red is tied to fire but also to anger, explosions, and the like; blue is tied to cold but also to fortitude and resolve; green is tied to nature; etc.) reasonably thematic and consistent.
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Mike
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grasa_total wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
I find it hard to visualize how making your Ice Shield twice as icy could cause it to affect enemies that are unaffected by cold, but not those that are resistant to heat....


I feel like this part of the theme doesn't hold up under too much examination (see also Demolish -- why are heat-resistant enemies immune to flying debris?). And theming metamagic is even more subject to handwaving. Why does Mana Bolt use blue mana? Dunno, it just does.


I always disregard the resistances when it comes to spell and ability effects. Prevents resistance-removing effects from becoming must-haves in the game.
 
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