Ty Snouffer
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Ran into a little rule disagreement the other night. Consider the following:

RFC's (5) turn to move. The flight is a Med +0
DLS (H) is at Deck +0



Let's say (5) declares diving flight and spends its last MP by moving into (H)'s hex ending at Low +0. It is now out of movement points.

Part of the Engagement Rules read:

13.2 c. The defender must be in the same hex as the attacker and at the same altitude or lower within the attacker’s altitude band, or the altitude band immediately below and attacker must not have climbed during the game turn (except per 13.22)

Part of the Diving Flight rules read:

10.31 Altitude change is considered to occur after expenditure of last MP.

So our question is, in the situation described above can (5) attempt to engage (H)?

One of us says "Sure, (5) can. He meets all the engagement requirements."

One of us says "No. When (5) spends his last MP his movement is over and cannot engage."

Anyone have a POV on this?
 
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Todd Quinn
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Hello Ty

Flight 5 could engage. You do not need a MP to engage. Sure his movement is over once he is in the same hex but engagement is a separate procedure to movement. You may not end up engaging depending upon the engagement dice rolls. As long as you (the attacker/moving flight) are in the same hex and no more than one alt band above the target then you may attempt to engage. So Flight 5 can attempt to engage.

If 10.31 is the issue, my assessment is that alt change is not a separate thing after movement, rather that the alt change occurs on the last MP. But ultimately, this rule is not a factor in this question. Pure and simple, Flight 5 satisfies the requirements to attempt an engagement.

Todd
 
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Rick Galli
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I'm Ty's opponent in this case, so I have a dog in this fight!

tsnouffer wrote:
One of us says "No. When (5) spends his last MP his movement is over and cannot engage."


What I actually said (or at least meant) was a little different. I agree that you can engage on the expenditure of your last MP. However, the change in altitude does not occur till after you have expended all MPs. Thus as Flight 5 enters Flight H's hex it is still at medium +0 and thus does does not meet the criteria to engage.

The question then is when a flight is expending its last MP to enter an enemy's hex does the engagement opportunity occur before or after the change in altitude? Based on my reading of the rules I think the engagement criteria must be met first (before the change in altitude), which would clearly be the case if the attacking flight was not on its last MP. But I could be wrong!

However, I am definitely curious as to what the official interpretation is!

(1) Edited to fix a typo, which I belatedly realize might have been the source of some confusion!
 
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Ty Snouffer
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gallid wrote:


What I actually said (or at least meant) was a little different.


Yeah, I was paraphrasing. You get to ask the next one that comes up!

Quote:
I agree that you can engage on the expenditure of your last MP. However, the change in altitude does not occur till after you have expended all MPs. Thus as Flight 5 enters Flight H's hex it is still at medium +0 and thus does meet the criteria to engage.

The question then is when a flight is expending its last MP to enter an enemy's hex does the engagement opportunity occur before or after the change in altitude? Based on my reading of the rules I think the engagement criteria must be met first (before the change in altitude), which would clearly be the case if the attacking flight was not on its last MP. But I could be wrong!

However, I am definitely curious as to what the official interpretation is!


To me it is still in this case . . . spend last MP, change altitude, attempt to engage.
 
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Rick Galli
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tsnouffer wrote:

To me it is still in this case . . . spend last MP, change altitude, attempt to engage.


Hmmm. My reading of 13.2 indicates that engagement happens during movement. When I read 10.31 it leads me to believe that the altitude change occurs after movement is complete. Thus I see the sequence as expend last MP, attempt to engage, change altitude.

However as we have already established that you and I disagree on this point, waiting for an official ruling seems like the wisest course!
 
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Ty Snouffer
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gallid wrote:
tsnouffer wrote:

To me it is still in this case . . . spend last MP, change altitude, attempt to engage.


Hmmm. My reading of 13.2 indicates that engagement happens during movement. When I read 10.31 it leads me to believe that the altitude change occurs after movement is complete. Thus I see the sequence as expend last MP, attempt to engage, change altitude.

However as we have already established that you and I disagree on this point, waiting for an official ruling seems like the wisest course!


Ah, it is either run this into the ground or clean my closets tonight. I'll do this . . .

I don't get why one could engage if they were just spending the last MP to move into the hex at, say, the same altitude, but once one moves/goes/dives to the new alt band that isn't part of movement.
 
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Rick Galli
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tsnouffer wrote:


I don't get why one could engage if they were just spending the last MP to move into the hex at, say, the same altitude, but once one moves/goes/dives to the new alt band that isn't part of movement.


Yeah arguing about rules is definitely better than cleaning your closet!

I have no idea if my interpretation is correct. But, if you are at the same altitude or one band higher (because you started there) then when you expend your last movement point you would still meet the engagement criteria and could try to engage. In this case it does not matter if you are diving or not or even if it is not your final movement point.

However If the attacking flight starts two bands higher and the change in altitude occurs after the conclusion of movement (as I interpret rule 10.31) then the plane would still be considered two altitude bands higher when it enters the hex and thus would not meet the engagement criteria and could not engage. The new altitude would be recorded at the end of movement. The flight might theoretically be able to engage at this new altitude, but cannot do so because it did not reach this altitude until after its move was over and engagement happens during movement (13.2).

Thus everything comes down to when the change in altitude actually occurs. If the change is considered part of the final MP expenditure, engagement would be possible. If it happens after, engagement is not possible. My reading of 10.31 leads me towards the latter interpretation.

We'll find out who's right when Terry weighs in!
 
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Todd Quinn
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I am afraid that too much is being read into the relevant rules.

Rule 13.2 (Engagement) states the following "Flights may attempt to attack an enemy flight or enter an existing non-activated Dogfight at any point during their movement." This includes after the movement of the flight ends. It is simple as that. You complete all aspects of movement and then if the prerequisites for engagement exist at that point engagement may be attempted.

Rule 10.31 (Diving Flight) states, "Altitude change is considered to occur after expenditure of last MP." This means that the altitude change happens in the last hex of the movement of the flight. It does not mean that the altitude change occurs as a separate, independent step after movement is (and any engagement prerequisite checks) completed. The altitude change is part of that movement.

Perhaps the quoted text of 10.31 could be worded slightly differently but the meaning is still clear. The altitude change is part of the final MP exenditure. Also, engagement can occur at any point during the movement (rule 13.2) including at the end of that movement. Therefore engagement is possible in the scenario outlined above.

Todd
 
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Ian Wedge
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Bear in mind that having the altitude change take place at the end of movement is simply an abstraction in order to simplify working out whether an aircraft is at one level or another during movement. A pro-rata method of calculating altitude could have been included but wasn't considered to be worth the rules overhead. So the reality is that the flight will be in the Low altitude band during its last hex of movement, but for purposes of calculating line of sight for example, is treated as being in the Med band until the end of movement.
 
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