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BattleCON: Devastation of Indines» Forums » Rules

Subject: Kaitlyn's Wormhole UA rss

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Nerds call me
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This goes out to Brad. I have a question about Kaitlyn's UA that I want clarified. It says, "When a player would move into a Wormhole Marker, remove it instead."

When Kaitlyn is pulled or is moved by her opponent into a Wormhole Marker, is the Marker removed or is she moved through the Marker with no effect?
 
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Mitko Simidchiev
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Not Brad, obviously, but when I played her back in playtesting it was made clear that wormholes apply to all players. Kaitlyn can choose to ignore them, however. So, in short, the Kaitlyn player should be able to decide whether to get pulled onto the wormhole or remove it instead.
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Sascha Parsa
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She can ignore them when she is moving (under her own effect). That much is clear from the wording of her UA.
However it is not clear if it also applies if she gets moved.
At the moment I'm leaning towards the first statement (choice only when she controls herself being moved) to ensure legal movements. Otherwise you could end up with push or pull movements becoming illegal after announcing them because Kaitlyn chose to ignore her wormholes.
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Alison Mandible
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Phyr wrote:
Otherwise you could end up with push or pull movements becoming illegal after announcing them because Kaitlyn chose to ignore zir wormholes.


Can you expand on that? I can't figure out how that could happen. (What's an 'illegal' push or pull in the first place?)
 
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Sascha Parsa
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Let's take that board as an example:
oooOoKo
Underlined are the spaces with wormholes. O is the opponent, K is Kaitlyn.
Let's assume that the opponent has the option to push Kaitlyn "up to 3 spaces". In order to push Kaitlyn against the wall the opponent would choose "push 2 spaces". But Kaitlyn can only be pushed 1 space if she can and does choose to ignore her wormhole, thus the push becoming illegal.

A movement is illegal and fails if the movement can't be completed (refer to Kajia's Parasitic for this). Or in the words of the rulebook:
"If a legal movement cannot be made, then the
movement is ignored entirely. (ex: “Advance 3 spaces”
when there are only two spaces left on the board)."
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Nerds call me
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This all demonstrates that we need a final ruling for the FAQ.
 
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Alison Mandible
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Phyr wrote:
In order to push Kaitlyn against the wall the opponent would choose "push 2 spaces". But Kaitlyn can only be pushed 1 space if ze can and does choose to ignore zir wormhole, thus the push becoming illegal.


Oh good grief. I do see what you mean. What a mess.
 
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Mitko Simidchiev
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Phyr wrote:
Let's take that board as an example:
oooOoKo
Underlined are the spaces with wormholes. O is the opponent, K is Kaitlyn.
Let's assume that the opponent has the option to push Kaitlyn "up to 3 spaces". In order to push Kaitlyn against the wall the opponent would choose "push 2 spaces". But Kaitlyn can only be pushed 1 space if she can and does choose to ignore her wormhole, thus the push becoming illegal.

A movement is illegal and fails if the movement can't be completed (refer to Kajia's Parasitic for this). Or in the words of the rulebook:
"If a legal movement cannot be made, then the
movement is ignored entirely. (ex: “Advance 3 spaces”
when there are only two spaces left on the board)."


I don't see this as a case of illegal movement. "Up to" means you can choose, so you can always make it legal. In that case, I would just say "I want to push you next to the edge - decide if you want to keep your WH or get it removed." The only case where that might become an issue is if for your example you had a "Push 2." In that case, however, I would say Kaitlyn would decide whether to get pushed and lose the WH or remain in place. This is just me thinking out loud, of course, but I really don't see her UA as terribly ambiguous or creating rules problems.
 
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Xavier Raabe
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alexmitko wrote:
Phyr wrote:
Let's take that board as an example:
oooOoKo
Underlined are the spaces with wormholes. O is the opponent, K is Kaitlyn.
Let's assume that the opponent has the option to push Kaitlyn "up to 3 spaces". In order to push Kaitlyn against the wall the opponent would choose "push 2 spaces". But Kaitlyn can only be pushed 1 space if she can and does choose to ignore her wormhole, thus the push becoming illegal.

A movement is illegal and fails if the movement can't be completed (refer to Kajia's Parasitic for this). Or in the words of the rulebook:
"If a legal movement cannot be made, then the
movement is ignored entirely. (ex: “Advance 3 spaces”
when there are only two spaces left on the board)."


I don't see this as a case of illegal movement. "Up to" means you can choose, so you can always make it legal. In that case, I would just say "I want to push you next to the edge - decide if you want to keep your WH or get it removed." The only case where that might become an issue is if for your example you had a "Push 2." In that case, however, I would say Kaitlyn would decide whether to get pushed and lose the WH or remain in place. This is just me thinking out loud, of course, but I really don't see her UA as terribly ambiguous or creating rules problems.


Even if the effect is "Up to", you technically do have to declare a numeric value.
 
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Sascha Parsa
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Zeofar wrote:
Even if the effect is "Up to", you technically do have to declare a numeric value.

That is exactly the problem. You have to declare the movement first (i.e. amount of spaces to push). After that as Kaitlyn would be moved into the wormhole she would get to decide whether to ignore it or not. This can result in a legal movement becoming illegal.
The order of the decisions is important here. And Kaitlyn's UA makes clear that her choice takes place as she is moving into a wormhole - which is after any kind of movement declaration.
The above leads me to the conclusion that Kaitlyn isn't able to decide whether to ignore a wormhole or not when she gets moved by an opponent for the integrity of legal movement declaration and processing.
 
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Olivier D.
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Phyr wrote:
Let's take that board as an example:
oooOoKo
Underlined are the spaces with wormholes. O is the opponent, K is Kaitlyn.
Let's assume that the opponent has the option to push Kaitlyn "up to 3 spaces". In order to push Kaitlyn against the wall the opponent would choose "push 2 spaces". But Kaitlyn can only be pushed 1 space if she can and does choose to ignore her wormhole, thus the push becoming illegal.

A movement is illegal and fails if the movement can't be completed (refer to Kajia's Parasitic for this). Or in the words of the rulebook:
"If a legal movement cannot be made, then the
movement is ignored entirely. (ex: “Advance 3 spaces”
when there are only two spaces left on the board)."


Actually, I think "push 2" would be illegal here, because it accounts for the wormhole. Since the wormhole's abilty is triggered by a character moving into its space, should it be involved when determining whether a move is legal or not in the first place?

There's only 1 space behind Kaitlyn, thus any push over 1 would be illegal (whether Kaitlyn can ignore the wormhole or not then becomes irrelevant to the legality of the move, although still important to the resolution of this action).

This would mean that wormholes on edges of the board basically prevent opponents from entering those spaces in 1 move (exactly how Khadath's trap would, if placed 1 space beside an edge).

It would also be interesting to know how wormholes interact with Clive's Megaton or Demitras' Jousting, and other "any number of spaces" abilities (does the player have to account for the wormholes, or announce a legal number, then reduce it due to the wormholes?).

 
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Sascha Parsa
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It is valid and legal to account for wormholes because they affect all characters and therefor the result can be projected when it comes to determining if a movement can be completed or not (=legal/illegal).
Kaitlyn as the exception may choose to ignore them.
If Kaitlyn is bound by the same rule to ensure a legal movement if possible then this issue would be fixed. It is however not clear if this applies.

A similar situation arises from Malandrax's Precision. Malandrax can control the movement of Kaitlyn. But does that apply to the decision whether to ignore markers or not as well?
Let's consider this board:
ooMooKo
Kaitlyn plays Burst while Malandrax uses Precision.
Malandrax chooses for Kaitlyn to retreat 2 spaces.

Kaitlyn being unable to decide to ignore wormholes when she gets moved fixes the original issue but not the one involving Malandrax's Precision.

This will definitely need Brad's ruling.
 
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Marco Santos
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I think our problem arises from how we read Kaitlyn's UA.

"When a player would move into a Wormhole Marker, remove it instead."

This reads as the effect actually happening but just giving a different result than as intended. (You intended to move there, but instead, a Wormhole was removed)

It's not a "you can't enter this space effect" that outright bans movement.

As such, your Malandrax example would resolve just fine, with him picking to move you 0,1 or even 2 spaces.

This is simply because the movement still takes place (which triggers the Wormhole's effect in the first place) and promptly removes the Wormhole instead of moving your character.

No illegal movement here and Kaitlyn should be able to ignore whenever she wants.
 
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Xavier Raabe
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I think some of the interpretations here are getting a little dicey. When you choose a number of spaces to move, it must be a legal value (within the limits of the arena and obeying relevant restrictions on movement). You ignore Kaitlyn's markers when choosing movement because they don't genuinely extend the board or restrict movement; they just replace the result of attempted movement. As such, it's illegal to choose "Retreat 2" in Phyr's example. Admittedly, I've never seen Kaitlyn played like this, but it's still the proper way to do it.
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Alison Mandible
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Zeofar wrote:
I think some of the interpretations here are getting a little dicey. When you choose a number of spaces to move, it must be a legal value (within the limits of the arena and obeying relevant restrictions on movement). You ignore Kaitlyn's markers when choosing movement because they don't genuinely extend the board or restrict movement; they just replace the result of attempted movement. As such, it's illegal to choose "Retreat 2" in Phyr's example. Admittedly, I've never seen Kaitlyn played like this, but it's still the proper way to do it.


What benefit is the "you have to choose a legal movement" rule providing, that it's worth twisting things in knots for it? I've never been clear on its purpose in the first place.

I would be quite annoyed if, when playing against Kaitlyn, I played a Dash in this situation:

•••MK••

and my opponent said, "No, you can't advance 3 to remove both wormholes because Advance 3 would be an illegal movement if my UA didn't exist". That's inane.
 
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Xavier Raabe
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grasa_total wrote:
That's inane.


Basically, yeah, but I can't see any way around it inside a strict interpretation of the rules. It's also a really obnoxious power boost to Kaitlyn compared to the version that people usually play with.
 
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Brad Talton
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I believe the correct way to handle this would be for Kaitlyn to decide if she will be affected by wormholes at the moment the effect triggers, and not able to change her mind during the effect. So it's either all or nothing.

So when you say 'push Kaitlyn up to 3 spaces', before you decide the number of spaces to push, she has to pick if she wants wormholes to affect her or not. This is the way that I played it in playtesting, and it seemed to work fine there.

That said, I think just having Kaitlyn's power to ignore them 'turn off' when she is being moved by others is what we will end up doing for the digital versions of the game. Getting hit is so bad for her, and movement and placement of wormholes are both so easy for her, that it's not going to affect her balance very much either way.
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Nerds call me
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I'm confused as to why you would want to allow her to ignore movement effects applied to her in the physical copies but not in the digital copies. Shouldn't her UA be consistent throughout so as to avoid confusion for players?

Kyokai wrote:


So when you say 'push Kaitlyn up to 3 spaces', before you decide the number of spaces to push, she has to pick if she wants wormholes to affect her or not. This is the way that I played it in playtesting, and it seemed to work fine there.



This makes me the most sense to me with how her UA is currently worded.
 
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Sascha Parsa
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It's a fix that works in all circumstances. So I'm fine with it.
"Kaitlyn may selectively ignore the effects of individual wormholes when she is moving herself or calculating range. When she is being moved she has to declare whether or not she will ignore all of her wormholes before the movement declaration is made. She may not change her mind during the movement."
I think that covers it.
 
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Phyr wrote:
It's a fix that works in all circumstances. So I'm fine with it.
"Kaitlyn may selectively ignore the effects of individual wormholes when she is moving herself or calculating range. When she is being moved she has to declare whether or not she will ignore all of her wormholes before the movement declaration is made. She may not change her mind during the movement."
I think that covers it.


Agreed. I have a BattleCON Living FAQ that I am compiling with all of these clarifications so I will add this.
 
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Sascha Parsa
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Me too. I can send you what I go so far.
 
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That'd be great. We could eventually combine the two and post a thread here and on BCO.
 
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Sascha Parsa
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Actually that still does not fix the situation with Malandrax's Precision...
I take back what I said about it fixing all circumstances.

How would that be handled?
 
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Olivier D.
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grasa_total wrote:
What benefit is the "you have to choose a legal movement" rule providing, that it's worth twisting things in knots for it? I've never been clear on its purpose in the first place.

I would be quite annoyed if, when playing against Kaitlyn, I played a Dash in this situation:

•••MK••

and my opponent said, "No, you can't advance 3 to remove both wormholes because Advance 3 would be an illegal movement if my UA didn't exist". That's inane.


What about the following (admittedly extreme) example, in a multiplayer :

KO•••••D

K=Kajia
O=Opponent
=Khadath's trap
D=Khadath

Would you allow Kajia to pull her opponent "Exactly 3 spaces" with parasitic, because the move is "legally" blocked by the trap?
 
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Brian Denning
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I don't get what the problem is with the "legal push" here. If they wanted to push her 2 spaces but she would end up against the board, wouldn't they just push her as far as they can and then stop? It would be just like playing a burst against the edge of the board. You HAVE to retreat, but you can't, so you say "well I tried" and stop. It would be the same with her. Just say "I get up to 3 pushes. I'm pushing you 3 spaces. You are against the wall. Remove your wormhole or don't." and call it a day. There's REALLY no need to make such a big deal about a non-issue like this.
 
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