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Subject: Why are there no page numbers in the rules booklet? rss

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Hendrik Neumann
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Something that really bugged me in the first edition of this game were the missing page numbers. I thought this to be an error that would be remedied in the 2nd edition, but it looks like I was wrong in this... is there anyone who can tell me the reasons for this (seemingly deliberate) omission?
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Nick Blank
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My guess:

The rules get updated on their website every 6 months. The rulebook is thus broken into sections (each section is a separate PDF file). So when one section is updated, players can download and print just that one without haveing to print the whole book for every update. So, if the rules are getting changed section by section, any overall numbering scheme could become messed up if one section grew by a page.

ASL rules handle this same problem by creating new page number, i.e. a replaced/expanced page 25 becomes 25, 25A, and 25B so page 26 is still in the right place, which works but is a bit odd. World at War just does away with page numbers alltogether so you just have to reference things by rule number, which also works but is odd in a different way.
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James Elkins
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Good answer. I was going to say it was a psychological tactic to make the rules seem less intimidating.
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Nick Blank
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elkinsjames02 wrote:
Good answer. I was going to say it was a psychological tactic to make the rules seem less intimidating.


Perhaps that's the reason it's called a rules booklet...
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Michael McFall
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I understand the reference to the rules number and that makes sense.

However, that kinda goes out the window when the first page of the rulesbook when it goes straight into "why are the rules so long"?

I am sure someone at GMT is concerned with people using World at War as an example of a game with a gigantic rulesbook. Why would they address that "first thing"? Why would they just not number the book anyways? A computer program will usually automaticly do that for you. It seems extra effort may have been put to sideskirt this very issue.

My thought is "why worry about it"? They already bought the game.

And for you out there who have not already bought the game; it has 233 pages of rules. Yes, I counted them. 236 if you count the 3 blank pages. So there you go 233 is the number. That 233 is also just the rulesbook NOT the scenario book or the other one.

I need to say something good. So far what I have read, the game seems pretty straight forward. I could do this and so can anyone else that can read and write.

THERE! The truth is out there.

PS: It also has 2800 counters but lists them as 10 counter sheets. Whats that going to tell you after the game is punched???

PPS: Ok so they undate the rules every six months. How come Fields of Fire has page numbers??? Thats a game that needs and gets a lot of updates.

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Jim Dauphinais
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Page number are overrated ;-)

Seriously, other than making sure all the pages are there and identifying the total number of pages, page numbers are meaningless for rules that are only referenced by case number. The ASL Rulebook has page numbers, but I have never used them to lookup a rule. The same applies to games with shorter rules that use case numbering (e.g., Federation Commander).

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Michael McFall
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Quote:
Page number are overrated ;-)


I completely agree.

In this case they should have left them in.

My point is this: GMT is trying to subdue that fact that this is a Monster Game with a lot of rules and counters. Monster games do not have a great reputation from a Marketing point of view. Look at all the various threads. Oh sure they sell well enough when they are out of print of eBay but who really gets rich doing that?

The fact they omitted the page numbers and didn't list the actual counter "count", tells me they are tap dancing around this being what it is. This is a Monster Game!!! Some of us out there actually like that.

GMT!!! Embrace the Monster!!! I am pround to tell people I own a game with 2800 pieces and 233 pages of rules. One day, someone will be up to the challenge and will actually want to play a full up campaign game.

Don't tap dance! It just smears the game at the very beginning and that doesn't sell it. Your fan base has a much higher IQ than that.
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Jim
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Not unlike the Christian Bible, by not referring to page number and simply by "Chapter and Verse" it's easier to communicate the rule(s) in question. Seriously, it's more like military publications which are constantly updated and are referred by regulation and paragraph, etc etc.
When, many many many, years ago I played ASL and Air War (another OMG set of rules-well at the time), yup I also didn't care about page numbers-as the rules are listed by paragraph and sub-para ID.
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Jim Dauphinais
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[q="michaelwmcfall"]
Quote:
Page number are overrated ;-)


Quote:
My point is this: GMT is trying to subdue that fact that this is a Monster Game with a lot of rules and counters. Monster games do not have a great reputation from a Marketing point of view. Look at all the various threads. Oh sure they sell well enough when they are out of print of eBay but who really gets rich doing that?

The fact they omitted the page numbers and didn't list the actual counter "count", tells me they are tap dancing around this being what it is. This is a Monster Game!!! Some of us out there actually like that.

GMT!!! Embrace the Monster!!! I am pround to tell people I own a game with 2800 pieces and 233 pages of rules. One day, someone will be up to the challenge and will actually want to play a full up campaign game.

Don't tap dance! It just smears the game at the very beginning and that doesn't sell it. Your fan base has a much higher IQ than that.


More likely than not this has nothing to do with GMT. GMT is likely just following Bruce Harper's lead and Bruce for whatever reason has decided he doesn't want to bother with page numbers. Moreover, I suspect it is likely more about making it easier to deal with rules updates (which GMT is really not involved with) than anything else.
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Gary Goh
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michaelwmcfall wrote:


GMT!!! Embrace the Monster!!! I am pround to tell people I own a game with 2800 pieces and 233 pages of rules. One day, someone will be up to the challenge and will actually want to play a full up campaign game.

Don't tap dance! It just smears the game at the very beginning and that doesn't sell it. Your fan base has a much higher IQ than that.


Doesn't the fact that the counter quantity of 2,800 being published as part of the game contents already a testament that GMT is open about the game's monstrosity?
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Michael McFall
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Gary I believe you missed the point about the way the counter count is listed. Most other games give an exact count right on the back of the box where you can see it BEFORE you buy.

On the back of the box it lists 10 sheets of counters. That doesn't tell you how many counters there are. Not until you count up one sheet and multiply 10 x 280. You have to buy the game and open it before you can do that.

Ask yourself, long after you have punched the game, played it and stowed it; how are you going to do an inventory of the pieces? If you remember that number, that's fine, if you keep the counter frames that's fine too but what if you didn't want to hang onto the trash?

As for Mr. Harper vs. GMT, they are the same as far as sales of this game is concerned.

Let's keep on point here. My point is, they should have kept the page number in the rules. Taking them out appears to put up a veal over the fact of how big this game really is. That's reinforced by the fact about the way the counters are listed. In the past if you read the posts, this game was specifically criticized about it's size.

People who play this, are not dumb. They know how big it is and they knew it before they bought it. You don't have to avoid the issue.

The person that is going to end up being upset is someone new to wargaming. They should have good information BEFORE they buy so they can make a good buying decision. That information should be on the back of the box.

Now MAYBE, just maybe Mr Harper, GMT, whoever did not intend to hide anything. This was probably an innocent mistake. It does not matter because the end result is the appearance. I think they, him, whoever is tap dancing.

If I think it then believe me, I am not the only one.
 
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Michael McFall
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Taking out the page numbers is like being put into a workplace without a clock then being told you are going to work a lot of extra hours. But don't worry, Management will take care of your timecard.

By the way, they make you take off your watch before you go into my hypothetical room.
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Hendrik Neumann
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Thanks for giving your thoughts, folks. I still do not see why they would leave the page numbers out, as

1) This game screams "Monster Game" all over, no need to hide that fact by scrapping page numbers. I'd even be proud of it!

2) Finding a page I am looking for is much easier if going by page number than by rules reference (page no. 110 is approximately in the middle of the book, but I have no clue where rule 33.5938493943 might be located page wise)

3) Modern software easily lets you modify only sections of the rulebook while automatically updating the page numbers/contents list

That's only my opinion, of course, but I find it sadly sloppy in a game that elsewise looks quite a polished product/game to me.
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Michael McFall
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Quote:
looks quite a polished product/game to me.


100% Agreed! I think it's a good game.

A couple of minor smears but I don't think those have anything to do with gameplay.

Just to be a proper Sportsman about this, I am going to rate this game as a "10" to show my support and how much I really like it.
 
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Jim
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I'd say it rates at least 9 if not an outright 10. My, probably thankfully, last comment on the rules is from the GMT AWW Webpage and I quote:
"OTHER


12 Player Aid Cards
196-page Rulebook
72-page Status Sheet booklet
24-page Research and Diplomacy booklet
24-page Scenario booklet
8 six-sided dice"
Complexity Mid slot in the "High" section
If a 196 page rulebook, plus two supplements that clock in at 48 pages don't clue one in to "Monster Game"; maybe this would, again from the website:
" ONLINE RESOURCES
A World at War Support Site
Rulebook (as published) 3.5Mb PDF "
Again with "living rules" as AWW was/is, and my painful staff experience working on plans,constantly revising page numbering is not cost-effective IMHO.


 
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Michael McFall
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That's all good Jim except for the one fact about all the info you provided, "it's all online". Again, you missed the point.

Notice how the number of pages got short-changed. I HAVE this game as do you from what I see in your collection. I counted up every single one of the rulebook pages; online it says 196???. The second edition has 233 pages of PRINTED rules. There are 3 blank pages that total the final count to 236. Don't believe me, count them and quit depending everything you see online about this game.

There are a hundreds of games that have less rules than what is missing in this descrepancy. Thirty seven (37) pages are missing from the online description.

Now ask your self, how come they can't even get the page count right?

Again! More tap dancing!

Got anything more you want to throw out there or can we finally just focus on the positive aspects???

 
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Jim
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Well, I am positive about the game as my rating comments and other posts to newbies to get them playing hopefully demonstrate. MY point was in reply to your rather surprising contention that GMT/Bruce Harper are apparently conspiring to hide that it's a "monster game" for marketing purposes by not using page numbers, or counter numbers-or now counting blank pages in the rulebook.
Clearly the data that is online, whether you happen to agree with what's posted or not, plus the AWW website (NOT run by GMT actually) tells one this is not for the faint of heart-ie a monster game.
Out,
jim
 
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Bill K
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no page numbers...
No page numbers is okay, but it would've been great to have the first-rule-number-on-the-page and the final-rule-number-on-the-page listed in the header. Just like dictionaries do with the first word and the last word on the page; and like Bibles do; and the ASLRB...
 
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Mark Stansfield
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I went cheap and picked up and unpunched copy of the 2003 edition for £80 this week.

I assume if I use the living rules that would be okay (plus maybe buying Countersheet 11).

As to page numbers, not such a big deal, it's pretty easy to skim though to section 28.7931 or whatever.
 
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matt rinderknecht
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I also had difficulty navigating the rules initially. I was using the index to try to find topics and was frustrated not to have page numbers. I found it much easier to navigate if you used the table of contents instead of the index. Now I navigate the rule book quite efficiently.

When searching for something it is much like using the phone book. For example; The 'S' section is much larger than the 'J' section, and you know 'M' comes after 'L' and before 'N'. Substitute numbers for letters and its just the same.
 
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