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The Supreme Commander» Forums » General

Subject: No Income for alliance based on enemy DoW rss

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Eric Loken
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I have a design decision question that I'm wondering if Dan Holte can answer.

Dan Holte said this in another thread:

"Also, there is no income involved in an alliance based on an enemy DoW so that won't be an issue (9.1.9)."

So if Spain (for example) is brought into the Axis through Diplomacy, Germany (or Italy if desired) gets the income from Spain every turn. But if the Western Allies decide its easier to go through Spain (historically it had been considered to invade Portugal and then Spain to get into Fortress Europa) and thus DoW Spain, then Spain becomes an Axis power, but even if they don't get knocked out quickly Germany (or Italy) doesn't get the income from unconquered Spain.

I was wondering about that when I read the rules. So it is good to see that I read it right. But I am wondering if the WHY can be explained?

There is even a rather gamey exploit that can be done. Germany is working on bringing Roumania into the Axis, and looks like next turn it will succeed. So instead of letting the Axis get the income from their new ally, at the end of their turn the Western Allies DoW Roumania; it doesn't cost the Western Allies anything, it does save the Germans some points and time, but denies the Germans the per turn income of 20 points per turn which as Roumania is likely to be an ally for several years before the Russians punch them out, is going to be a significant hit.

Is that as designed, and if so, why?
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Danny Holte
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Eric,

Look at it from this angle:

Germany declares war on Romania in 1940, therefore making it an Allied minor country.

Now, MSP represents many things, including direct exploited gains or trade as well as prestige, international political clout, etc., but how would the U.K. or France benefit in any way materially from an allied Hungary?

A nation made ally to the point of providing armed assistance would be much more amiable to material aid than one fighting for its existence made ally through last resort.

In the case of your example; yes, it can work that way - if the U.K. can meet the adjacency requirement. The British and French actually considered something along these lines; a preemptive landing in Norway before the Germans could invade (..this was also considered as the most expedient way to aid Finland)

In the case of Romania here, what would likely happen is that the German player would immediately liberate the minor, as the U.K. would have no means to support it, and the player would begin building its forces as an ally.

In the case of inactive minor allies - for example, the Baltic States as an inactive ally of the Germans after annexation by the USSR, the Germans would still have the option of declaring war on it even though an ally - what effectively happened historically in game terms.
 
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Kevin Bernatz
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Dan,

I don't think you're understanding the example/question. Eric is saying that the UK or France DOW's Rumanian (lets say at the end of turn 1). Nothing in the DOW rules (10.5) prohibits this declaration of war - the DOW rules do not require that a country is adjacent to the country being declared war upon (if it did, then Germany could never DOW Norway and, once France falls, Italy would also be safe from any potential DOW).

The issue is "Why would the Allies not do this DOW /EVERY/ game?" E.g. if the U.K. DOW's Rumania as a free DOW at the end of turn 1, what is the negative cost associated with that - and how does that outweigh the loss in adding the Minor Nation's MSP Per Turn for the rest of the game?

To take this argument even further, what is there to stop the UK from declaring war on ALL of Italy, Bulgaria, Hungary, Rumania and perhaps even Finland at the end of Turn 1, thereby denying Germany a TON of MSP Per Turn.

Yes, Germany saves a bit on diplomacy...but they still would get the same units, and now they lose out on the MSP per Turn for the rest of the game.

This may be something we discuss re: the errata file and see if maybe the wording isn't quite what you intended...

-K
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Danny Holte
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Kevin,

Sorry - it's been some months away from the game and I mixed the Dip rules in there...

What happens in that case is that German player immediately goes into the USSR, and the Russians are doomed with no annexation bonuses and no armies, while the Brits and French are not prepared to really help them. The Germans grab a whole group of Soviet MSP cities, early to make up for the allies.

It allows the Germans to immediately start working Diplomacy with Turkey as well, and the Italians keep the Brits and French busy.
 
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Danny Holte
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I kinda' hate to post that, because they are kinda' fun to play out - and make for great stories.
 
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Kevin Bernatz
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If I know gamers, I don't think posting it will stop them from trying it themselves :-).

But, I still think this issue needs to be thought some more on. Maybe not the extreme (though that still worries me, since there are always "counters to the counter", etc..)...but the situation that the OP originally described.

E.g. if you see someone has the minor at A3 or G3, why not just do a free DOW on it, save the person 5, 10, 20 MSP (from not having to do the next Dip roll)...but then costing that person a HUGE number of MSP's per turn for the rest of the game.

E.g. Hungary, sitting at G3 will /eventually/ be German allied..so if Germany fails to align them on their turn 1, why not have the W.Allies issue a free DOW at the end of their turn? Over the course of the game this could cost the Axis 15x55 MSP = 825(!) MSP..likely closer to 15x45 (assuming Hungary doesn't last until the very turn), but that is still a loss of 675 MSP!

The same logical argument can be applied to any of the minor Nations once the opponent has them at A3/G3. UK about to align Iraq? Just DOW it and cost the UK 10 MSP per turn for the rest of the game (likely 200-300 MSP, easily).

Anyway, this is something we can discuss more off-list and see whether we want to eliminate that rule (in truth, I don't see it having much game effect and it removes an exception....I hate exceptions :-> ).

-K
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don p
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This was a non starter rule. So we just played that the parent country gets the msp's for the minor country. This played through 2 games with no issues. After all a parent country can build the minor allies units! It just makes since!
 
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Eric Loken
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kbernatz wrote:
I hate exceptions :-> ).


I'm with you on that.

Its an exception that in the long run doesn't seem to make a lot of sense from a game perspective. And to me, the game is more important than accuracy.

I understand what Dan said about the country focusing on self defence, but a legitimate DoW will usually result in the minor with its back to the wall right away, and not contributing much if anything anyway. If Poland - for example - somehow survives long enough to give a few points to the Allies, I think that's a far less significant problem than denying Germany many turns worth of points from one or more of its legitimate allies. I think the rule errs in the wrong direction.

Anyway, thanks for the thoughts.
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Charles Finch
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Why not contributed points once all the minor's units are built using their own map (or those of the controller)? So uk Dow s ru, ge saves some dip points, build ru units out and then gets points (once that occurs it doesn't revert later, ie losses not need to be rebuilt as ge is assumed to now have puppet state in place)
 
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