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Subject: Boehner, it's all up to you man... rss

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J
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The GOP has cracked. There are now enough Republicans on record as supporting a clean CR to pass it in the House.

Quote:
As the second day of the government shutdown nears its end, it now appears that 17 House Republicans have had enough and are prepared to vote for a ‘clean’ resolution that would get things up and running once again—all without the GOP challenges to Obamacare.

In the event the 200 House Democrats hold together to vote for the clean bill sent back to the House from the Senate, the 17 GOPers would be enough to pass the legislation and get the doors to the government open for business once again.
[LINK]

All Boehner has to do is bring it up for a vote. If he doesn't then the Shutdown is all on him.

Wonder how long he will keep those cancer patients waiting...

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Marc P
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Grampa, tell me about when you were Speaker of the House.
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Boaty McBoatface
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So all of this was for nothing? At the end of the day America has been damaged, both it's reputation, credibility and economy. The fight over ACA will continue, but now maybe in ways that are not designed to damage America until they get their way.

Moreover the GOP now looks weak, divided and foolish.
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J
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slatersteven wrote:
So all of this was for nothing?

Boehner would still have to bring the clean CR up for a floor vote. He would have to violate the convention about not voting on anything that doesn't have a majority of the majority supporting it. And he may not do that since the whackjob contingent would likely try and rip him of his speakership. So it may come down to Boehner keeping the government shutdown so he can keep his Speakership.

Quote:
Moreover the GOP now looks weak, divided and foolish.

Yep, even many members of the GOP will agree with that, and have on record.
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jeremy cobert
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"a clean bill" that is code word for stripping out the legistaltive exemptions and allowing the Democrats to continue their subsidy to exempt themselves from the ACA.

this is one area where I agree with the Democrats, if I could exempt myself from this poorly conceived law, then I would.

and the 17 who cracked are most likely the liberal republicans who usually do crack.

 
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J
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jeremycobert wrote:
"a clean bill" that is code word for stripping out the legistaltive exemptions and allowing the Democrats to continue their subsidy to exempt themselves from the ACA.

No, that's not what it is. Where do you get your info, or do you just make this shit up?
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Ken
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jmilum wrote:
No, that's not what it is. Where do you get your info, or do you just make this shit up?


I believe you've just heard the latest & greatest spin on what a "Clean CR" means.
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Dave G
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perfalbion wrote:
jmilum wrote:
No, that's not what it is. Where do you get your info, or do you just make this shit up?


I believe you've just heard the latest & greatest spin on what a "Clean CR" means.


Hopefully this guy crawls back to chit chat when the shutdown is over. I wouldn't bother taking him seriously.
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Ken
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
Hopefully this guy crawls back to chit chat when the shutdown is over. I wouldn't bother taking him seriously.


I hope I didn't give the impression I was taking him seriously. I have standards to maintain now.
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jmilum wrote:
. He would have to violate the convention about not voting on anything that doesn't have a majority of the majority supporting it.


Can I just take a second to say that the "majority of the majority" bullshit is the stupidest, most undemocratic thing about our system of governance? We may as well just send the minority party in the House back to their districts to kick back and drink piña coladas, since they are utterly excluded from the legislative process

If something can get more than half of the representatives to vote for it, it should get passed. Period.
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J
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toku42 wrote:
Can I just take a second to say that the "majority of the majority" bullshit is the stupidest, most undemocratic thing about our system of governance?

It's just a convention of the Republicans, not something by rule or law. Everyone gives Pelosi a bad rap, but when she said:

Nancy pelosi wrote:
I’m the Speaker of the House. I have to take into consideration something broader than the majority of the majority in the Democratic Caucus.

I think she was right. It's the "Speaker of the House" not the "Speaker for Party X"
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Ken
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toku42 wrote:
Can I just take a second to say that the "majority of the majority" bullshit is the stupidest, most undemocratic thing about our system of governance?


While I get where you're coming back, it does reflect the degree of confidence that the majority leadership has secured from their party. It's not too dissimilar to a vote of confidence in a parliamentary system. Hell, if we had a parliament (something I think would be better for us more and more frequently), the government would have just collapsed.

Quote:
If something can get more than half of the representatives to vote for it, it should get passed. Period.


In the past, Speakers have brought things to the floor when they wouldn't get a majority of their own party because it was the right thing to do to govern. Usually after allowing their party to vote the way they wanted to and show their opposition to whatever, followed by negotiations, followed by a vote that would pass. It hasn't cost them their jobs as Speaker.

We'll see whether Mr. Boehner is willing to do so. And if he does, what that means for the Republican caucus. If he does and they boot him for it, I don't think that will play well for the GOP outside of the extreme side of the party.
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jeremy cobert
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toku42 wrote:
If something can get more than half of the representatives to vote for it, it should get passed. Period.


no thank you, that would be called democracy and that is the last thing we want. we have an elected republic which allows the minority to block the majority and this system works much better then a straight democracy.
 
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
perfalbion wrote:
jmilum wrote:
No, that's not what it is. Where do you get your info, or do you just make this shit up?


I believe you've just heard the latest & greatest spin on what a "Clean CR" means.


Hopefully this guy crawls back to chit chat when the shutdown is over. I wouldn't bother taking him seriously.


Now, now, we all know that RSP is the elite of BGG, but if we drive away all the little people, how will they ever attain our pinnacle of enlightenment? And it's not just for their benefit, it's good to be reminded sometimes what the uninformed are thinking and feeling so we know how to properly communicate their wrongness to them. Before they come to RSP they are just programmed by their Party puppet masters as to what to think or say.

Seriously though, I say this from a left and right perspective. In RSP, contrary to popular belief, we do have mostly level-headed discussions about all sides of an issue instead of some political boards which are pretty much either "Obama!" or "Bush!" with little dissent either way. Of course we get those sentiments here, but they are challenged. We should allow the wanderers from those proven "echo chambers" to witness and participate in real discussions for a change. We just need to be patient with their deprogramming phase.

Was I condescending enough? I feel like I could be if I tried harder.
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J
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Boehner originally wanted to do a show vote and pass a clean CR, but the 30 Tea Party whackjobs put the nix on that plan.

If the Republicans try to boot him, perhaps Pelosi could get the Democrats to vote to keep him. He would be better than whoever the nutters want as a Speaker.
 
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Ken
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jmilum wrote:
Boehner originally wanted to do a show vote and pass a clean CR, but the 30 Tea Party whackjobs put the nix on that plan.


Sad, but true.

Quote:
If the Republicans try to boot him, perhaps Pelosi could get the Democrats to vote to keep him. He would be better than whoever the nutters want as a Speaker.


Actually, if that happens I think you let him go and roll the dice. If they put up a nutjob as Speaker, we're no more screwed than we are right now. But I think the GOP wouldn't end up doing that because the non-TP members aren't going to go for someone that's even more extreme than Boehner. Particularly if this particular stand-off builds a stronger and stronger case for their electoral opponents.
 
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Josh
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slatersteven wrote:
So all of this was for nothing? At the end of the day America has been damaged, both it's reputation, credibility and economy. The fight over ACA will continue, but now maybe in ways that are not designed to damage America until they get their way.

Moreover the GOP now looks weak, divided and foolish.


No, saying this kind of thing is what will *keep* us in a stalemate. The GOP Already looks weak, divided, foolish, and petulant. Bohner having the cajones to put this up, to thumb his nose at the partisan hacks while actually taking a stand for 'Murica itself would be the best thing he could do for his party in the long term. He needs to come out level, middle ground, and hard against the elements in his own party that are railroading this. The moderates need to stand together and proceed with a real 'America first, our wants second' platform. That could take them right into the white house in 2016. That's their best bet out of this.
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J
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perfalbion wrote:
But I think the GOP wouldn't end up doing that because the non-TP members aren't going to go for someone that's even more extreme than Boehner. Particularly if this particular stand-off builds a stronger and stronger case for their electoral opponents.

You may be right, but they seem to think each failure is due to not being a "real conservative" which is code for whackjob nutter.
 
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Ken
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jmilum wrote:
You may be right, but they seem to think each failure is due to not being a "real conservative" which is code for whackjob nutter.


But we don't move past that until "being a real conservative" becomes code for "we can hold everything up, but that's actively damaging the country because nothing's getting done."

Until the GOP starts pushing back on the extremes internally, there's no reason to think things will change. Unless the Dems get a majority in both houses of Congress, and that's a drug-induced hallucination.
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perfalbion wrote:
Hell, if we had a parliament (something I think would be better for us more and more frequently), the government would have just collapsed.


However, given our rampant gerrymandering, I'm not really sure that would help.

What did the last Congress end up with, something like an 90% incumbency re-election rate? And that even WITH people retiring??

As long as everyone keeps voting the same idiots into office ("after all, it's not *me or mine* that is the problem - it's all of you guys," said every American about every topic, ever)...
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XanderF wrote:
perfalbion wrote:
Hell, if we had a parliament (something I think would be better for us more and more frequently), the government would have just collapsed.


However, given our rampant gerrymandering, I'm not really sure that would help.

What did the last Congress end up with, something like an 90% incumbency re-election rate? And that even WITH people retiring??

As long as everyone keeps voting the same idiots into office ("after all, it's not *me or mine* that is the problem - it's all of you guys," said every American about every topic, ever)...


I just want to point out - apparently the people voting the same old guys back into office all live in the Northeast, California and maybe the Midwest. The guy I voted for is new and he earned my vote by being an actual conservative. Same goes for the guy I voted for before him, he earned the vote, then after a couple terms he became a DC person and so the voters here sent him packing.

Maybe one of you pedantic Asperger's types can come up with a graphic that shows what states have the most congresspeople who have been incumbent the longest. Then we can cross-reference that with the states that the RSP regulars live in and find out who's an actual piece of shit and who just keeps getting called one.

I have an idea who would be the actual ones... probably the same guys capable of finding or creating the graphic revealing their true nature.
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Ken
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XanderF wrote:
However, given our rampant gerrymandering, I'm not really sure that would help.


Shifting to a parliamentary system would require much, much more than just changing the structure of the branches of government. But there's a really long conversation discussing which would be good/bad.

But it's worth keeping in mind that many parliamentary systems don't have citizen's voting for individual candidates - you vote a party and seats are allocated proportional to the vote. Lots of the electoral issues change when you make such a shift.

There's some really interesting scholarship out there about the inherent dangers of the US system based on the fact that the President isn't really accountable to Congress. It used to be that people just wrote those off as being a reflection of cultural issues (notably in S. America, Egypt, etc.) and said the US was different. I'm not so sure that we aren't seeing the evidence that this isn't actually true - it just took us north of 200 years to hit an adequate level of dysfunction.
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DWTripp wrote:
I just want to point out - apparently the people voting the same old guys back into office all live in the Northeast, California and maybe the Midwest. The guy I voted for is new and he earned my vote by being an actual conservative. Same goes for the guy I voted for before him, he earned the vote, then after a couple terms he became a DC person and so the voters here sent him packing.

Maybe one of you pedantic Asperger's types can come up with a graphic that shows what states have the most congresspeople who have been incumbent the longest. Then we can cross-reference that with the states that the RSP regulars live in and find out who's an actual piece of shit and who just keeps getting called one.

I have an idea who would be the actual ones... probably the same guys capable of finding or creating the graphic revealing their true nature.



As of June 7, 2013, Representative John Dingell (D-MI), the current dean of the House, has the longest service of any Member in history (57 years and counting). He began serving on December 13, 1955.

At the beginning of the 113th Congress, 75 of the Representatives (17% of the total House membership) had first been elected to the House in November 2012, and 14 of the Senators (14% of the total Senate membership) had first been elected to the Senate in November 2012, or appointed to the Senate in December 2012. These numbers are lower than at the beginning of the 112th Congress, when 21% of the House, and 15% of the Senate, were newly elected or appointed “freshmen.”

At the beginning of the 113th Congress, 157 Representatives (36% of the House Members) had no more than two years of House experience, and 30 Senators (30% of the Senators) had no more than two years of Senate experience.


 
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Tom McVey
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Quote:
apparently the people voting the same old guys back into office all live in the Northeast, California and maybe the Midwest.


There was a Soviet-level 90% return of incumbents last election. Now, admittedly congress is ridiculously skewed to favor low-population areas, but 90% of the population don't live on the coasts.
 
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DWTripp wrote:

I just want to point out - apparently the people voting the same old guys back into office all live in the Northeast, California and maybe the Midwest. The guy I voted for is new and he earned my vote by being an actual conservative. Same goes for the guy I voted for before him, he earned the vote, then after a couple terms he became a DC person and so the voters here sent him packing.

Maybe one of you pedantic Asperger's types can come up with a graphic that shows what states have the most congresspeople who have been incumbent the longest. Then we can cross-reference that with the states that the RSP regulars live in and find out who's an actual piece of shit and who just keeps getting called one.

I have an idea who would be the actual ones... probably the same guys capable of finding or creating the graphic revealing their true nature.


I don't think it's a partisan issue. Due to the screwed up campaign finance system, the complicated consequences of it and general voter apathy it takes a lot to buck incumbent momentum.

I mean, look at these graphs
http://www.opensecrets.org/bigpicture/reelect.php

Now that's not the ones you asked for, but it does show that incumbency is nothing new, for at least 50 years, and at those rates suggests that the incumbent states aren't outliers, the ones who change reps (like yours did) are outliers.
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