Matt Boehland
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(cross posted from the pathfinder card game forums)

Just was thinking that it seems odd all the times where you have only a few cards left in hand but come against a monster and don't bother using any cards to defeat it, because 'it can barely damage me anyway!' (if you have 2 cards, the most damage it can deal is 2)

Of course, failing to defeat the monster means it gets shuffled back in, so you do want to beat it, but it still seems odd that a dragon would be unable to damage you much more than you already 'damaged yourself'.

How about a variant where if you take more damage than you have cards in hand, the excess cards get discarded from your deck?

Clearly, its a 'hard mode', but just a thought..
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Emmanouil Karakostas
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interesting but very hard anyways!
If someone is not equiped, his deck will be dissappear in a few blows.

The poison traps manage to damage your deck normally and thematically, and i think it is enough for now.

the game is pretty balanced regarding to damage.

Sometimes your whole hand will be discarded from damage, sometimes, less, sometimes none.

but anyways, just a try will persuades us
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Jacob Søgaard
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Wouldn't it destroy the "tankiness" of tanks and "squishiness" of spellcasters? E.g. Valeros has a starting hand of 4 and Ezren has a starting hand of 6, thus Ezren got more options but is also more vulnerable...

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Matt Boehland
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In theory it should, but in our game, the player who only gets 4 cards (maybe Valeros, but not handy to check) is an absolute killer in combat and almost never takes any damage anyway. But a valid point nonetheless.


Any ideas on how to account for that? Maybe a charcter with a 4 card hand size gets to negate 1 overflow damage?... or maybe that's getting too fiddly to be worth it.

Just a thought, we might try it if the game starts getting too easy.
 
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Jacob Søgaard
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A simple way to account for that is to use your method, but the maximum damage you can take at once is equal to your maximum hand size. Thus if Valeros only got 1 card left and takes 8 points of damage he would discard 1 card from his hand and 3 from his deck. If Ezren was in the same situation, he would have to discard the 1 card in his hand and 5 cards from his deck.
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Matt Boehland
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...actually, I think all that would be needed is to say when damaged, you can take damage up to your initial hand size, coming from your hand first and then from your draw deck (obviously, this wouldn't be quite so nasty on a huge hit as my original idea).
 
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Jacob Søgaard
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Yes, that was what I tried to explain. :]
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Matt Boehland
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Ah, so you did, I originally misunderstood.
 
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Christian @BoardGameMonster
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Have you play-tested this yet?
 
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John O'Brien
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An alternative:

When you have to discard in excess of your hand, you discard the surplus from your deck or from the top of the blessings deck, your choice. Either take a walloping for the team or burn "time" to avoid it.

[Caveat: no playtesting whatsoever]
 
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Christopher Ebert
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I'm not quite sure how this would work honestly. I think this variant makes sense when you look at what is physically being done to the cards... (a dragon only causes Valeros to lose a max of 4hp!?)

But I think there's more to it and why it is the way it is. If you make characters for Pathfinder RPG... the Fighter will have way more hit points than the wizard. (typically). However, all decks in this game start off with 15 cards. So it "seems" as if everyone has the same health. However, factor in that Valeros (Fighter) can recharge weapons instead of discarding them. That in a way "raises" his hit point total right there. This is why the sorcerer cannot automatically recharge a card she discards for her "fireball". Valeros, however, losing 4 cards, is a huge hit to him, especially if you're like me and keep a good weapon and armor handy at all times. It would be about as much of a hit, as the cleric losing 6 cards.

Just keep in mind that losing health may not just be tied to the amount of cards you are discarding when all the math starts factoring together.

I hope I explained that well, maybe someone else could explain it better, but I hope you get the idea of what I'm saying.

Edit: hit send instead of preview to proofread...
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Nathaniel GOUSSET
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shacky22 wrote:
I'm not quite sure how this would work honestly. I think this variant makes sense when you look at what is physically being done to the cards... (a dragon only causes Valeros to lose a max of 4hp!?)


You got it wrong.

A dragon cause Valeros or Ezren to lose a "hand" of HP. Valeros having more HP he will only lose 4/15 of his HP, Ezren being weaker will lose 6/15.
 
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Brian M
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We accidentally played this way for a bit. The first time we ever had a character take more damage than they had cards in hand was about a dozen plays in and a week after we'd read the rules, so we just went with what seemed right. Which was tossing cards off the top of the deck.

It didn't happen very often however. I think it works well for taking a stray point of damage or two, but not so well when you can take massive damage from a trap that you don't have much way of avoiding and that many characters can't even soak with defense cards (since most cards just soak combat damage).

While the existing damage rules lead to some odd situations, I think overall they work better.

Perhaps if you discard off the top it would make sense to cap the damage at, say, 6 actual damage taken or so.

Chubby wrote:
Wouldn't it destroy the "tankiness" of tanks and "squishiness" of spellcasters? E.g. Valeros has a starting hand of 4 and Ezren has a starting hand of 6, thus Ezren got more options but is also more vulnerable...


But it doesn't make much sense that having fewer cards in hand is helpful to begin with. Why does Valeros become more vulnerable to damage when he 'levels up' and increases his hand size?
 
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Stu Jones
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StormKnight wrote:
But it doesn't make much sense that having fewer cards in hand is helpful to begin with. Why does Valeros become more vulnerable to damage when he 'levels up' and increases his hand size?


Because, despite the game's RPG roots, it is inevitably a card game, and there are only so many ways you can abstract any RPG mechanism with a deck of cards. While adding to hand size does make him more vulnerable, by the time you do it, he's hopefully gotten some serious armor and weapon upgrades and is able to mitigate that fairly well, being the beast that he is.
 
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Lee Hodgson
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that sounds like a good idea . Ive also thought of implementing a new way of starting up the adventure . Each character picks one weapon , one armor , two blessings ( or 1 if your hand limit is 4 ) and a spell, item or ally to round off the hand . If you are going out to adventure you would be equipped the way you want to start . its an easier start I agree but the game can still mess you up ! and your variant might make this a nice rules combo !
 
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Nathaniel GOUSSET
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Deekow wrote:
StormKnight wrote:
But it doesn't make much sense that having fewer cards in hand is helpful to begin with. Why does Valeros become more vulnerable to damage when he 'levels up' and increases his hand size?


Because, despite the game's RPG roots, it is inevitably a card game, and there are only so many ways you can abstract any RPG mechanism with a deck of cards. While adding to hand size does make him more vulnerable, by the time you do it, he's hopefully gotten some serious armor and weapon upgrades and is able to mitigate that fairly well, being the beast that he is.


Because he is STILL less vulnerable to damage than the equivalent high level character.

Remember you can add to your hand size AND to your deck size.

If both character add 2 cards you will have Valeros at 4/17 and Ezren at 6/17, Valeros can add a hand size to go up to 5/17 but he still will be healthier than Ezren. (as he will need 4 full discard to die to the 3 of Ezren).

The hand size increase is like Valeros took a level of Rogue/Ranger/Other class, he lose a bit of durability but earn a bit of polyvalence.

This is a nice mechanism.
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Brian M
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Some people will rationalize anything.
 
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Robert McLean
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How about this for Hard Mode:

You Bury any cards that would be discarded from encountering a bane.
 
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Yass Fuentes
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What about if you reach a threshold of virtual HP loss (the damage left after discarting your hand) equals your actual character handlimit divided by two (round down), you lose permanent one of your hand limit. This means, you really got hurt. The maximum penalty you can reach this way, is your BASE handlimit -2.

Anytime you got healed (by spell, potion or whatever) you regain one for your handlimit (the maximum, the check in your character card, if any).

This effect sould be permanent, even between scenarios.
 
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