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Subject: Dwarves Tunneling Points Causes Huge Argument rss

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Mike Stevens
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We were playing a 3-player game of Terra Mystica tonight. All three of us have several games under our belt and we did a random draw for our Races. Once you drew your board, you could play what ever side you wanted. I drew the gray board and picked the Dwarves. Player 2 -Mr. I'm Mad at the World picked the Witches, and Jazzy Jeff took the Swarmlings.

Jeff took the early lead with the Swarmlings and although I started slow, once I got my Stronghold Built and some settlements built and got my digging to where it only cost one worker, I was on cruise control. Since it only cost me one worker to tunnel, I would tunnel every chance I got, getting 4 points each time I did. I would always tunnel then terra form and build or sometimes I would just terra
form once I was out of buildings.

I had saved up lots of workers and was tunneling like crazy. In round 5, Player 2 - Mr. Mad became very irritated and said "let me look at your board". He then went on to tell me that I was doing tunneling wrong and that I only get the 4 points when I tunnel and build. He said that if all I had to do was just tunnel and terra form, that the game would be broken and the Dwarves would be way over powered. I tried to explain that I had to pay the worker to tunnel, then I had to terra form and/or build. He started pointing to my players board at the picture of tunneling which shows an arrow and a settlement being placed on the hex. He tried to argue that when I tunnel I must build. I explained that it is tunnel then you must terra form and/or build. He kept saying that if that was the case, then the Dwarves were a broken race and could not be beat. I told him that I have seen the Dwarves get beat several times. It got pretty heated considering we were just playing a game and up until that point we were all having a really good time.

Please let me know who was right in this argument. Thanks for your help.
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Gareth Lloyd
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From the rule book

Ability: When taking the “Transform and Build” action, you may skip
one Terrain or River space by paying 2 more Workers (Tunneling). Get
4 Victory points each time when Tunneling. You have no Shipping. In
the final Area scoring, any Structures that can be reached via Tunneling
are considered connected (regardless of the number of your leftover
Workers).

EDIT: To clarify in the “Transform and Build” action, if you have changed Terrain type to your Home terrain, you may immediately build a Dwelling on that space.
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Kin
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Omahavice wrote:
We were playing a 3-player game of Terra Mystica tonight. All three of us have several games under our belt and we did a random draw for our Races. Once you drew your board, you could play what ever side you wanted. I drew the gray board and picked the Dwarves. Player 2 -Mr. I'm Mad at the World picked the Witches, and Jazzy Jeff took the Swarmlings.

Jeff took the early lead with the Swarmlings and although I started slow, once I got my Stronghold Built and some settlements built and got my digging to where it only cost one worker, I was on cruise control. Since it only cost me one worker to tunnel, I would tunnel every chance I got, getting 4 points each time I did. I would always tunnel then terra form and build or sometimes I would just terra
form once I was out of buildings.

I had saved up lots of workers and was tunneling like crazy. In round 5, Player 2 - Mr. Mad became very irritated and said "let me look at your board". He then went on to tell me that I was doing tunneling wrong and that I only get the 4 points when I tunnel and build. He said that if all I had to do was just tunnel and terra form, that the game would be broken and the Dwarves would be way over powered. I tried to explain that I had to pay the worker to tunnel, then I had to terra form and/or build. He started pointing to my players board at the picture of tunneling which shows an arrow and a settlement being placed on the hex. He tried to argue that when I tunnel I must build. I explained that it is tunnel then you must terra form and/or build. He kept saying that if that was the case, then the Dwarves were a broken race and could not be beat. I told him that I have seen the Dwarves get beat several times. It got pretty heated considering we were just playing a game and up until that point we were all having a really good time.

Please let me know who was right in this argument. Thanks for your help.


You are correct.
It costs you 2 workers to tunnel (or 1 if your stronghold was built). Then you must terraform and/or build after. So it is legal to just tunnel and terraform.

Noobs often blame the faction as being broken when they lose. The Dwarves can be strong under some setups but they're not "broken". Under the same board setup, several other factions can definitely beat them.

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Chris Linneman
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This is why games have rulebooks.

Assuming you are still friends with this individual, I would just offer to let him take the Dwarves next time. They are one of the stronger factions but certainly not unbeatable.
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Mike Stevens
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QBert80 wrote:
This is why games have rulebooks.

Assuming you are still friends with this individual, I would just offer to let him take the Dwarves next time. They are one of the stronger factions but certainly not unbeatable.


I actually did both of those things. I told Mad Man that I thought every faction was beatable and he could play the Dwarves anytime. Jeff looked up the rule while we argued and agreed that to Tunnel you had to either terra form or build but Mad Man kept pointing at my board where it shows the settlement being placed down. Oh well it's only a game
Pshake
 
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Dave Eisen
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If you as the dwarves are able to:

1. Build your stronghold.
2. Upgrade your digging tech so it only costs one worker to do a transform using a shovel.
3. Accumulate a huge pile of workers

you *will* get a lot of victory points. Doing just #1 and #2 is a pretty serious task and by the time I have achieved it, I generally have a smallish pile of workers. It's worth something, but not even close to game breaking.

If you were able to do this while accumulating a huge pile of workers, well, seems like your opponents should have stepped up the pressure to prevent this. Or maybe you're just way better than I am at the game and rightly deserve your victory.
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Kin
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Omahavice wrote:
QBert80 wrote:
This is why games have rulebooks.

Assuming you are still friends with this individual, I would just offer to let him take the Dwarves next time. They are one of the stronger factions but certainly not unbeatable.


I actually did both of those things. I told Mad Man that I thought every faction was beatable and he could play the Dwarves anytime. Jeff looked up the rule while we argued and agreed that to Tunnel you had to either terra form or build but Mad Man kept pointing at my board where it shows the settlement being placed down. Oh well it's only a game
Pshake


There are 500+ games logged here:

http://terra.snellman.net/stats/

You can show Mr.Mad that while Dwarves are one of the stronger factions, they are not broken. The best way to demonstrate this to him, is to let him play Dwarves, beat him using faction XXX, then he'll complain that faction XXX is even more broken than the Dwarves.
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Rafael Ramus
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candoo wrote:
Omahavice wrote:
QBert80 wrote:
This is why games have rulebooks.

Assuming you are still friends with this individual, I would just offer to let him take the Dwarves next time. They are one of the stronger factions but certainly not unbeatable.


I actually did both of those things. I told Mad Man that I thought every faction was beatable and he could play the Dwarves anytime. Jeff looked up the rule while we argued and agreed that to Tunnel you had to either terra form or build but Mad Man kept pointing at my board where it shows the settlement being placed down. Oh well it's only a game
Pshake


There are 500+ games logged here:

http://terra.snellman.net/stats/

You can show Mr.Mad that while Dwarves are one of the stronger factions, they are not broken. The best way to demonstrate this to him, is to let him play Dwarves, beat him using faction XXX, then he'll complain that faction XXX is even more broken than the Dwarves.


Yes, do that with Fakirs. He'll learn the lesson. devil
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Orion Anderson
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You could also use math. With a stronghold and upgraded digging technology, Dwarf workers are worth 2 VP each. If the Scoring tile that gives +2 for terraforming is active, then each worker will be worth 3VP that turn,

Halflings with digging technology can get 1VP from each worker at any time, and 3VP per worker if the score tile is active.

Alchemists with a stronghold and upgraded digging can turn 1 worker into 2 power. They can use that power to buy 1 coin, which is worth 0.5VP. But with the scoring tile, they go crazy. Suppose you start with 3 workers. Sending them to dig earns 6power and 6VP. You could cash out 3 coins and end with 7.5VP, or you could cash them out for 1 Worker, turn him into 2power and 2 vp, and then cash out 1 coin for 0.5. So you can turn 3 workers into 8.5 VP, and the more workers you start with the more efficient it is.

Being able to turn workers into points is not a unique dwarven advantage.
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Pieter
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He can "point at the board" as much as he likes, but a picture on a board does not beat a rulebook.
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Robert Crawford
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OrionJA wrote:
You could also use math. With a stronghold and upgraded digging technology, Dwarf workers are worth 2 VP each. If the Scoring tile that gives +2 for terraforming is active, then each worker will be worth 3VP that turn,

Halflings with digging technology can get 1VP from each worker at any time, and 3VP per worker if the score tile is active.

Alchemists with a stronghold and upgraded digging can turn 1 worker into 2 power. They can use that power to buy 1 coin, which is worth 0.5VP. But with the scoring tile, they go crazy. Suppose you start with 3 workers. Sending them to dig earns 6power and 6VP. You could cash out 3 coins and end with 7.5VP, or you could cash them out for 1 Worker, turn him into 2power and 2 vp, and then cash out 1 coin for 0.5. So you can turn 3 workers into 8.5 VP, and the more workers you start with the more efficient it is.

Being able to turn workers into points is not a unique dwarven advantage.


Just finished a game where the same argument came up. Slightly different, as the dissenter in this case was saying that if I tunneled to terraform with one action (not building), then I couldn't tunnel to that same spot to build there with my next action, because I've already built a tunnel to that spot. He was finally convinced based on the fact that if that were the case, the game would require you to record the fact that the Dwarf tunneled to a certain spot, because otherwise you just have to remember that they did that.

Anyway, his main argument was that being able to trade 2 workers for 4 points as much as you wanted just sounded way too powerful. Someone else was playing Halflings and pointed out that he could trade a worker for a point as much as he wanted too.

However, with all the examples you give; it does still seem that Dwarfs have a higher worker-to-VP ratio than anyone else. This is more of a strategy question now; but is it at all a viable strategy to simply upgrade your digging and get your stronghold (could be done by round 2 or 3 if that's what you focused on), and then just simply spend all your workers on terraforming back and forth while tunneling? It would get more VP per worker than any other race mentioned here.
 
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Daniel Honig
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Yes, it is a viable strategy, or at least part of one. However, it is a giant infrastructure drain (you're also going to need dwellings to actually provide the workers, and money somehow so you can turn that terraforming into a town). There's a lot of resources sunk into getting that conversion ratio up.
 
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