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Subject: How exactly does Run Step 2.3 work? rss

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Mike Bialecki
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I don't think this affects any of the current card interactions, but I'm curious anyway. How exactly does step 2.3 of the Run Timing Structure work?

Here it is:
2.3 Approached ICE can be rezzed, paid abilities, non-ICE can be rezzed.

I think the way it works is that these are 3 things that can be done in any order and as many times as possible during the player's opportunity. Since the Runner is the "active player" during a Run, she'll have a chance to do everything in 2.3 that she wants to do. Only after she's done with everything, the Corporation does everything he wants to do in any order including rezzing or not rezzing the ICE.

The alternative is that FFG meant to do this:
2.3 Approached ICE can be rezzed.
2.4 Paid abilities and non-ICE can be rezzed


This is very different than my original interpretation, but I assume if FFG wanted it to work this way, they'd have listed it this way.
 
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Jeremy Owens
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I confused why you think it would matter?

2.2 Runner decides whether to continue.
2.3 Ice Rezzing; Paid Actions; General Rezzing
2.4 Check for Rezzed Ice and whether the encounter begins

It's not as if the runner has the option to jack out after the ice is rezzed. Why should the specific structure matter when a change would not change gameplay at all?
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Dirk Meijer
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It matters because now Akitaro Watanabe can be rezzed before the ICE is rezzed. I'm guessing it specifically says the approached ICE can be rezzed, since ICE can't usually be rezzed when other cards can.
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Brodie
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Huh. Then...couldn't a situation like this occur?

2.0: The Runner approaches Ice Wall, the outermost piece of ice not already approached on the attacked server.

2.1 The Runner declines to trigger paid abilities. The Corporation declines as well, moving to 2.2.

2.2 The Runner decides to continue the run.

2.3 The Runner declines to trigger paid abilities. The Corporation rezzes Ice Wall, and declines to rez any other cards or activate any other abilities. Priority returns to the Runner. The Runner activates Self-Modifying Code's paid ability and installs a Parasite on Ice Wall, then activates Datasucker's ability by spending a virus counter to reduce Ice Wall's strength to 0. Parasite's ability triggers and trashes Ice Wall (and Parasite).

2.4 I assume the Runner goes to either 2.0 if there's another piece of ice protecting the server, or to 4.0 if not; most importantly, the Runner never encounters Ice Wall.

Doesn't this present a way to get around on-encounter triggers like Chum?
 
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Jeremy Owens
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Ahh, yes. I forgot about Akitaro and Dedicated Server. So changing it would change the gameplay. My mistake.
 
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Mike Bialecki
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malhaku wrote:
I confused why you think it would matter?

2.2 Runner decides whether to continue.
2.3 Ice Rezzing; Paid Actions; General Rezzing
2.4 Check for Rezzed Ice and whether the encounter begins

It's not as if the runner has the option to jack out after the ice is rezzed. Why should the specific structure matter when a change would not change gameplay at all?


If my second interpretation is correct, then the runner gets to see the rezzed ICE before deciding to do some paid ability.

If my first interpretation is correct, there is very little difference between the paid ability window of 2.1 and 2.3 for the runner. And the Runner must decide to play paid actions before the ICE is rezzed.

I concede that it may make no difference with the card pool right now.
 
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Trevor Schadt
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Agent Archer wrote:
Huh. Then...couldn't a situation like this occur?

2.0: The Runner approaches Ice Wall, the outermost piece of ice not already approached on the attacked server.

2.1 The Runner declines to trigger paid abilities. The Corporation declines as well, moving to 2.2.

2.2 The Runner decides to continue the run.

2.3 The Runner declines to trigger paid abilities. The Corporation rezzes Ice Wall, and declines to rez any other cards or activate any other abilities. Priority returns to the Runner. The Runner activates Self-Modifying Code's paid ability and installs a Parasite on Ice Wall, then activates Datasucker's ability by spending a virus counter to reduce Ice Wall's strength to 0. Parasite's ability triggers and trashes Ice Wall (and Parasite).

2.4 I assume the Runner goes to either 2.0 if there's another piece of ice protecting the server, or to 4.0 if not; most importantly, the Runner never encounters Ice Wall.

Doesn't this present a way to get around on-encounter triggers like Chum?
Datasucker's text includes the phrasing "target ICE currently being encountered." Therefore, you can only spend Datasucker counters for any effect once you have encountered the ice.
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Brodie
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Ah, that's what I was missing. Thanks!
 
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Mike Bialecki
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Agent Archer wrote:
Huh. Then...couldn't a situation like this occur?


2.3 The Runner declines to trigger paid abilities. The Corporation rezzes Ice Wall, and declines to rez any other cards or activate any other abilities. Priority returns to the Runner. The Runner activates Self-Modifying Code's paid ability and installs a Parasite on Ice Wall, then activates Datasucker's ability by spending a virus counter to reduce Ice Wall's strength to 0. Parasite's ability triggers and trashes Ice Wall (and Parasite).



If 2.3 is treated as a pool of options taken in any order, then the RUNNER would get to do it first, not the Corporation. And the Runner does everything she wants to do before the Corporation. There's no "one thing at a time" back and forth. The Runner gets one chance to do everything in 2.3, then corporation gets once chance to do everything in 2.3.
 
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Andrew Keddie
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mbialeck wrote:
Agent Archer wrote:
Huh. Then...couldn't a situation like this occur?


2.3 The Runner declines to trigger paid abilities. The Corporation rezzes Ice Wall, and declines to rez any other cards or activate any other abilities. Priority returns to the Runner. The Runner activates Self-Modifying Code's paid ability and installs a Parasite on Ice Wall, then activates Datasucker's ability by spending a virus counter to reduce Ice Wall's strength to 0. Parasite's ability triggers and trashes Ice Wall (and Parasite).



If 2.3 is treated as a pool of options taken in any order, then the RUNNER would get to do it first, not the Corporation. And the Runner does everything she wants to do before the Corporation. There's no "one thing at a time" back and forth. The Runner gets one chance to do everything in 2.3, then corporation gets once chance to do everything in 2.3.


Re-read the rulebook - direct quote.

Quote:
Timing Priority Whenever there is an opportunity to trigger paid abilities, rez cards and/or score agendas (usually at the beginning of a turn and after each action), the player who is currently taking his turn gets the first opportunity to act. He can trigger as many abilities, rez as many cards, and/or score as many agendas as he wishes in the order of his choosing. When he is finished, the other player gets the opportunity to act. When that player is finished, the first player gets the opportunity to act once again. After both players have had at least one opportunity to act and a player declines to act, then the players cannot trigger more abilities, rez more cards, or score more agendas until the next opportunity to do so.


So yes, the runner can do more things after the corp has acted, but ONLY if the corp acted. Once the corp has chosen not to act (or either player declines to act after this point), move on to the next step in the run.
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Mike Bialecki
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CommissarFeesh wrote:
[q="mbialeck"][q="Agent Archer"]Huh. Then...couldn't a situation like this occur?

Re-read the rulebook - direct quote.

Quote:
Timing Priority Whenever there is an opportunity to trigger paid abilities, rez cards and/or score agendas (usually at the beginning of a turn and after each action), the player who is currently taking his turn gets the first opportunity to act. He can trigger as many abilities, rez as many cards, and/or score as many agendas as he wishes in the order of his choosing. When he is finished, the other player gets the opportunity to act. When that player is finished, the first player gets the opportunity to act once again. After both players have had at least one opportunity to act and a player declines to act, then the players cannot trigger more abilities, rez more cards, or score more agendas until the next opportunity to do so.


So yes, the runner can do more things after the corp has acted, but ONLY if the corp acted. Once the corp has chosen not to act (or either player declines to act after this point), move on to the next step in the run.


Well lookie there. I missed that last bit. Thanks!

[edit] Now I understand 2.3 a lot better. As long as the corporation does something in 2.3 (like rezzing ICE), the Runner has an opportunity to react with a paid ability.
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R. Fetterkey
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I'm not sure I understand this part:

"After both players have had at least one opportunity to act and a player declines to act, then the players cannot trigger more abilities, rez more cards, or score more agendas until the next opportunity to do so."

This would seem to indicate to me that if the runner declines to "preemptively" act in step 2.3 and the Corporation then rezzes, both players have had at least one opportunity to act and a player has declined to act, so no further actions can be taken. However this would also mean that if the runner DOES preemptively act in step 2.3 and the Corporation rezzes, the runner than does get a chance to respond.

This seems totally ridiculous to me so I'm hoping someone can explain where I'm wrong here.
 
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fetterkey wrote:
I'm not sure I understand this part:

"After both players have had at least one opportunity to act and a player declines to act, then the players cannot trigger more abilities, rez more cards, or score more agendas until the next opportunity to do so."

This would seem to indicate to me that if the runner declines to "preemptively" act in step 2.3 and the Corporation then rezzes, both players have had at least one opportunity to act and a player has declined to act, so no further actions can be taken. However this would also mean that if the runner DOES preemptively act in step 2.3 and the Corporation rezzes, the runner than does get a chance to respond.

This seems totally ridiculous to me so I'm hoping someone can explain where I'm wrong here.

I can't say I disagree. Only reason I understand how it works is because of the example.

Is it more accurate to say: "After both players have had at least one opportunity to act and both players have declined to act, then the players cannot trigger more abilities, rez more cards, or score more agendas until the next opportunity to do so."?
 
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Neil G
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fetterkey wrote:
I'm not sure I understand this part:

"After both players have had at least one opportunity to act and a player declines to act, then the players cannot trigger more abilities, rez more cards, or score more agendas until the next opportunity to do so."

This would seem to indicate to me that if the runner declines to "preemptively" act in step 2.3 and the Corporation then rezzes, both players have had at least one opportunity to act and a player has declined to act, so no further actions can be taken. However this would also mean that if the runner DOES preemptively act in step 2.3 and the Corporation rezzes, the runner than does get a chance to respond.

This seems totally ridiculous to me so I'm hoping someone can explain where I'm wrong here.


There's an implicit 'then' in the first sentence - it should be read as "After both players have had at least one opportunity to act and [THEN] a player declines to act" i.e. the player declining to act clause only take effect once both players have had a chance to act. Not the best wording, I agree!
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Andy Mills
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AstroLad wrote:

Is it more accurate to say: "After both players have had at least one opportunity to act and both players have declined to act,


No, it isn't more accurate - if the Runner takes an action, and then the Corp declines to act, then the window closes.
 
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Steven Tu
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Here's a practical example we DID run into last night, which made no sense to me.

Runner makes a run on R&D with a Parasite in heap and Clone Chip in play.

Corp rezzes a Popup.


What the runner WANTS TO do: Clone Chip the Parasite and kill the Popup at the earliest possible opportunity, before step 3's on-encounter effect. 2.3 says paid ability may be used. BUT it seems like it had to play out like this:

2.3 starts
Runner declines to do anything, cos there's no target.
Corp rezzes Popup.
Runner cannot act anymore because he declined first.


Which seems ridiculous to me.

Even more ridiculous is the same reading that results in this:

2.3 starts
Runner pays 1c towards a card on a Personal Workshop. Just because he can.
Corp Rezzes Popup.
Runner can now act because neither player has declined to act yet.


WTF?! Because the runner having to do *something*, anything just so that the window doesn't close after an ICE rezzes seems completely conuter-intuitive and definitely not what personal workshop or in fact any card that can do that would be made for.


Therefore I posit that the phrase should be read and understood as such:

After both players have had at least one opportunity to act and a player declines to act, then the players cannot trigger more abilities, rez more cards, or score more agendas until the next opportunity to do so.

Both players must have a chance to do something.
A player declines to act = the last player with the chance to do something does nothing
Window ends.

So:

2.3 starts
Runner declines to act
(both players have not had a chance to act yet, window is open)

Corp rezzes Popup
(both players have had a chance to act, but noone has declined to act yet, window is open)

Runner clone chips a parasite using paid ability
(both players have had a chance to act, but noone has declined to act yet, window is open)

Corp declines to act
(both players have had a chance to act, the last player with a chance to act has declined, window closes)


THAT is how it makes the most sense to me. Either side should be given a chance to act after the other has acted. Otherwise it results in side-specific paid ability windows.
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Sonny A.
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In other words. The window to use paid abilities does not close until there has been two "decline to act" in a row. (Edit add) Unless one of the players has already acted, in which case it only takes one decline to close the window.
 
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Allan Clements
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SonnyDK wrote:
In other words. The window to use paid abilities does not close until there has been two "decline to act" in a row.


That isn't true. Once both players have had a chance to act, as soon as any side passes the window closes. Does not require 2 passes in a row.
 
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Sonny A.
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Kamakaze wrote:
SonnyDK wrote:
In other words. The window to use paid abilities does not close until there has been two "decline to act" in a row.


That isn't true. Once both players have had a chance to act, as soon as any side passes the window closes. Does not require 2 passes in a row.


Right.. that's also how I interpret the rule. My bad on the poor wording.

It ping-pongs between players, until at some point one of them decline to act.
 
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Andrew Keddie
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Tuism wrote:

What the runner WANTS TO do: Clone Chip the Parasite and kill the Popup at the earliest possible opportunity, before step 3's on-encounter effect.


Perhaps the rules are written this way specifically so you can't ignore the on encounter ability? Although being able to pay for a PW token to circumvent that is a weird 'cheat' if that was the case...
 
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Sonny A.
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From an old thread. Credit for the image belongs to Arry1.



And from a Lukas quote

Lukas wrote:


Thanks for the question. It should work like this:

1. Player 1: Opportunity to act
-Decline OR act
If declined, window closes*
If act, continue to step 2
2. Player 2: Opportunity to act
-Decline OR act
If declined, window closes
If act, return to step 1

*UNLESS this is the first time either player has been given the opportunity to act


(Image and quote from this thread: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1008511/declining-to-act)
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Mike Bialecki
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SonnyDK wrote:
From an old thread. Credit for the image belongs to Arry1.



And from a Lukas quote

Lukas wrote:


Thanks for the question. It should work like this:

1. Player 1: Opportunity to act
-Decline OR act
If declined, window closes*
If act, continue to step 2
2. Player 2: Opportunity to act
-Decline OR act
If declined, window closes
If act, return to step 1

*UNLESS this is the first time either player has been given the opportunity to act


(Image and quote from this thread: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1008511/declining-to-act)



Wow. I thought I had it figured out, then confused myself again reading some of the other responses, now I think I have it figured out again after reading the response above.

It's pretty much like any action window in MTG except when one player "has the floor" she can do as many things as she likes before giving up the floor to the next player. And as long as one player has done something while she has "had the floor", the other player can respond (except that player B's first opportunity doesn't rely on player A doing something).

If I understand things correctly, that also means that Player A does NOT have to do something first in order to react to something Player B does.
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Ben Finkel
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Correct, Mike.

Netrunner's timing structure is weird because pretty much the whole game relies on what you called "having the floor". Corporate Troubleshooter, for example, would be positively broken if Netrunner's timing were a more traditional stack or one-ability-at-a-time model.
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Mike Bialecki
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Azeltir wrote:
Correct, Mike.

Netrunner's timing structure is weird because pretty much the whole game relies on what you called "having the floor". Corporate Troubleshooter, for example, would be positively broken if Netrunner's timing were a more traditional stack or one-ability-at-a-time model.


Great. Thanks.

Now let me solidify my understanding by trying to explain your Corporate Troubleshooter example. By "broken," I assume you mean way UNDERpowered if ANR were a "one action at a time" game. Because the Corp would have to spend one of it's single-action opportunities to Rez ICE and then it's second single-action opportunity to use Corporate Troubleshooter. That would give the runner one opportunity to deal with the rezzed ICE at the ICE's original strength (probably slapping a Parasite on it).

Is that what you meant?

Thanks.
 
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Ben Finkel
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mbialeck wrote:
Azeltir wrote:
Correct, Mike.

Netrunner's timing structure is weird because pretty much the whole game relies on what you called "having the floor". Corporate Troubleshooter, for example, would be positively broken if Netrunner's timing were a more traditional stack or one-ability-at-a-time model.


Great. Thanks.

Now let me solidify my understanding by trying to explain your Corporate Troubleshooter example. By "broken," I assume you mean way UNDERpowered if ANR were a "one action at a time" game. Because the Corp would have to spend one of it's single-action opportunities to Rez ICE and then it's second single-action opportunity to use Corporate Troubleshooter. That would give the runner one opportunity to deal with the rezzed ICE at the ICE's original strength (probably slapping a Parasite on it).

Is that what you meant?

Thanks.


Au contraire, it would mean Corporate Troubleshooter could be used juuuuuust as the runner is about to break a nasty subroutine, during Step 3.1.

You pay 2 credits to raise Femme Fatale to 3 strength.
I pass.
You pay 2 credits to raise Femme Fatale to 4 strength.
I pass.
You pay 2 credits to raise Femme Fatale to 5 strength.
I pass.
You pay 2 credits to raise Femme Fatale to 6 strength.
I rez Corporate Troubleshooter.
You pay 1 credit to break a subroutine.
I use Corporate Troubleshooter to raise Archer out of your reach.

Or I could have done it a step earlier to make all the subroutines hit. Either way, this way makes you have to pay 6-9 credits before I burn you with my Troubleshot Archer, whereas in the actual rules, when I Troubleshoot out of reach, you at least get to save your cash.
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