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Subject: New Advanced Actions and Spells rss

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Reviving an old thread of mine. Might be interesting to see what people think about the content I created awhile back. See below poll for card info and below card summary for some my reasoning and thoughts.

Compiled post with definitions for new terms like Earth and Wind elements here: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/13424655#13424655

Version 2
Poll
What do you think about the relative strength of my new advanced action cards?
  Useless Junk Very Weak Weak Average (good) Rather Strong Strong Very Strong Clearly Overpowered
Stone Guard
Discovery
Elemental Aegis
Flame Slash
Inspirational Cheer
Eagle Eye
Adaptability
Guardianship
      2 answers
Poll created by Fatesadvent


Version 2
Poll
What do you think about the relative strength of my new spell cards?
  Useless Junk Very Weak Weak Average (good) Rather Strong Strong Very Strong Clearly Overpowered
Enchant/Enthrall
Comet/Meteor
Illuminate/Shadow
Lightning Rush/White Flash
Providence/Cataclysm
Leaf Blade/Flower Storm
Marvel/Judgment
Flux/Eclipse
Mana Shine/Mana Brilliance
Mind Clarity/Mind Meld
Mana Well/Mana Blessing
Energy Current/Energy Force
      1 answer
Poll created by Fatesadvent


New Advanced Actions (version 2)
Stone Guard
Your Hero gains 2 Armor for this turn.
[Green Mana]: Your Hero gains 3 Armor for this turn. Ignore up to 2 wounds gained due to Poison this turn

Discovery
Gain a green mana token. Look at the top 5 cards of your deed deck and rearrange them in any order.
[Green Mana]: Gain a green mana crystal. Look at the top 5 cards of your deed deck, rearrange them in any order and then draw 1 card.

Elemental Aegis
One unit you control gains Fire or Ice Resistance
[Red Mana]: Cold Fire Block 2 and one unit you control gains Fire and Ice Resistance

Flame Slash
Fire Attack 2. You may pay one non-Red mana to increase the effect of this attack by 1 if you do.
[Red Mana]: Fire Attack 4 and you may pay up to 2 additional Red mana. Increase the effect of this attack by 2 for each one.

Inspirational Cheer
Influence 2. Until the end of the turn, you may spend Influence as Move.
[White Mana] Influence 4. Until the end of the turn, you may spend Influence as Move and Move as Influence.

Eagle Eye
You can change one card with any type and element of Attack to Ranged. That Attack is reduced by 1 (reduced by 2 if it is Cold Fire).
[White Mana] You can change one card with any type and element of Attack to Siege. That Attack is reduced by 1 (reduced by 2 if it is Cold Fire).

Adaptability
This turn, you gain Move 1 during the move phase and Block 1 during the block phase and Attack 1 during the Attack phase and Influence 1 during an interaction. Additionally, up to one card played sideways can be worth 2 instead of 1.
[Blue Mana]: This turn, you gain Move 2 during the move phase and Block 2 during the block phase and Attack 2 during the Attack phase and Influence 2 during an interaction. Any cards played sideways this turn can be worth 2 instead of 1.

Guardianship
Gain Block 3/4/5 if your Reputation bonus is negative/neutral/positive
[Blue Mana] Block 7. Increase the effect of this Block by 1 for each spent unit you control.

Other Info
It was hard to decide what kind of cards to add so I started by tallying what was already available into several categories of offense/defense/move/influence/heal+draw/mana+crystal/other

I came up with the following
Offense: 9 = 23% | Defense: 4 = 10% | Mobility: 7 = 18% | Influence/Learning/Recruit: 7 = 18%
Healing/Draw/Ready: 3 = 8% | Mana: 7 = 18% | Other: 3 = 8% (maximal effect, basic magic talent, advanced blood of the ancients)
Total: 40

Based on these numbers, defensive actions are a bit under represented (perhaps intentional), so I decided to add a few more of those in. I suppose of note, healing+defense adds up to about 18%. Other than the healing category (pretty sure this one is intentionally smaller), the other areas seem relatively even, so I tried to add a bit of everything to avoid messing everything up.

After adding my cards in, I got
Offense: 11.75 = 24% | Defense: 7.75 = 16% | Mobility: 7.75 = 16% | Influence/Learning/Recruit: 7.75 = 16%
Healing/Draw/Ready: 4 = 8% | Mana: 7 = 15% | Other: 2 = 5%
Total: 48


New Spells (Version 2)
Enchant/Enthrall
[Red Mana] Influence 3. Roll one mana die for each unit you control. Place one basic mana crystal from the supply of the corresponding result on each unit (your choice if gold or black). Each turn, you can use one of those mana by discarding it. When a unit is wounded, discard all mana tokens on it
[Red Mana, Black Mana] Influence 8. For each ready unit you control, choose and gain Reputation +1 or Fame +1 (maximum combined total of +5)

Comet/Meteor
[Red Mana] Siege Attack 3. For each enemy you defeat during the Ranged/Siege phase of combat, you gain Attack 1 during the Attack phase.
[Red Mana, Black Mana] Siege Attack 5. Choose one enemy involved in this attack, increase the effect of this attack by 1 for every 2 Armor that enemy has.

Illuminate/Shadow
[White Mana] Target enemy gets Attack-4 or all enemies get Attack-2
[White Mana, Black Mana] Target enemy gets Attack-5 (Attack-7 if it is unfortified) or all enemies get Attack-2 (Attack-4 if they are unfortified). Attack cannot be reduced below 0.

Lightning Rush/White Flash
[White Mana] Move 6. You can take your action phase before the movement phase during this turn.
[White Mana, Black Mana] Move 9. You can take two actions this turn. After taking all your actions, you may have another movement phase

Providence/Cataclysm
[Green Mana] Look at the bottom 3 cards in your deed deck. Add one to your hand, one to the top of your deed deck and the other to your discard pile.
[Green Mana, Black Mana] Add one wound to the top of your deck or your discard pile. Destroy target unfortified enemy.

Leaf Blade/Flower Storm
[Green Mana] Attack 7. Increase the effect of this attack by 1 for each green crystal you have in your inventory
[Green Mana, Black Mana] For each enemy you face, pick Fire or Ice. Gain Fire Block 3 or Ice Block 3 against that enemy. Heal 1 for each enemy you successfully blocked and defeated in combat

Marvel/Judgment
[Blue Mana] Use any Skill that can be used once per turn that you own twice or flip over a face-down skill you own.
[Blue Mana, Black Mana] Cold Fire Attack 6. Increase the effect of this attack by 1 for each positive Reputation bonus you have.

Flux/Eclipse
[Blue Mana] Use any of the following abilities up to a total of 3 times (each ability can be used multiple times): target enemy loses earth resistance, target enemy loses wind resistance, one Block becomes Ice Block or one Attack to Fire Attack
[Blue Mana, Black Mana] While in combat, discard up to two enemy token (except enemies with arcane immunity) and replace it with enemy tokens from the top of any pile. Until the end of combat, all enemy Fire Attacks and Ice Attacks become Physical

Cooperative Spells (takes the place of Interactive spells 17-20 in Coop games)
Mana Shine/Mana Brilliance

[Red Mana] During the day, you gain a gold mana token or during the night, you gain a black mana token. Each other player gains a basic mana token of their choice.
[Red Mana, Black Mana] Roll three mana dice, gain a mana token for each. Until the end of your turn, both gold and black mana can be used as normal during the day or night. Each other play gains a crystal of their choice to their inventories.

Mana Well/Mana Blessing
[Blue Mana] Take one mana die from the supply, roll it and add it to the source. You can either gain 3 mana tokens of the rolled result, or one mana token of that color each turn for the rest of the remainder of the Round (starting with your next turn). The added mana die can be used by any player until the end of the round.
[Blue Mana, Black Mana] Same as the basic effect. In addition, until the end of the Round, each time another player uses at least two mana of that color on their turn (from any source), they get Heal 1 at the end of the their turn (before mana die are rerolled)

Mind Clarity/Mind Meld
[White Mana] Choose a color. Gain a crystal of the chosen color to your inventory. You may give a card of the matching color in your hand to another player (they add it to their hand). When that card is to be sent to the discard pile or deed deck, put it in your discard pile or deed deck instead. Draw 1 card.
[White Mana, Black Mana] Choose a color. Gain a crystal of the chosen color to your inventory. Each other player may lend you an action card (not spell or artifact) of the matching color in their hand. When the lent cards are to be placed in the discard pile or deed deck, return them to the appropriate pile of the original owner.

Energy Current/Energy Force
[Green Mana] Ready a unit. If you do, you may ready one Unit of level 2 or less in each other player’s unit area.
[Green Mana, Black Mana] Ready a unit. If you do, that unit also Healed and you may ready one unit of level 3 or less in each other player’s Unit area.
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Version 1
Stone Guard
Block 3. Your Hero gains 2 Armor for this turn.
[Green Mana]: Block 5. Your Hero gains 3 Armor for this turn. Ignore up to 2 wounds gained due to Poison this turn

Discovery
Discard 1 card. Draw 3 cards
[Green Mana]: Draw 3 cards

Elemental Forces
One unit you control gains Fire or Ice Resistance
[Red Mana]: Cold Fire Block 2 and one unit you control gains Fire and Ice Resistance

Flame Slash
Fire Attack 2 and you may pay up to one non-Red mana. Increase the effect of this attack by 1 if you do.
[Red Mana]: Fire Attack 4 and you may pay up to 2 additional Red mana. Increase the effect of this attack by 2 for each one.

Inspirational Cheer
Influence 2. Until the end of the turn, you may spend Influence as Move
[White Mana] Influence 4. Until the end of the turn, you may spend Influence as Move and Move as Influence

Eagle Eye
Ranged Attack 1. You can change one card with any type and element of Attack to Ranged.
[White Mana] Siege Attack 1. You can change one card with any type and element of Attack to Siege.

Adaptability
This turn, you gain Move 1 during the move phase and Block 1 during the block phase and Attack 1 during the Attack phase and Influence 1 during an interaction. Additionally, up to one card played sideways can be worth 2 instead of 1
[Blue Mana]: This turn, you gain Move 2 during the move phase and Block 2 during the block phase and Attack 2 during the Attack phase and Influence 2 during an interaction. Any cards played sideways can be worth 2 instead of 1

Guardianship
Two Block 3 against different attacks
[Blue Mana] Three Block 3 against different attacks. If you successfully Block two different attacks with this card, Reputation+1. If you successfully Block three different attacks with this card. Reputation+2.


Older Polls
Advanced Actions Version 1
Poll
What do you think about the relative strength of my new advanced action cards?
  Useless Junk Very Weak Weak Average (good) Rather Strong Strong Very Strong Clearly Overpowered
Stone Guard
Discovery
Elemental
Flame Slash
Inspirational Cheer
Eagle Eye
Adaptability
Guardianship
      8 answers
Poll created by Fatesadvent
 
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Jeff Thornsen
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I don't think the game needs any more cards, but anyway my thoughts...

Stone Guard - Card has 2 effects that oppose each other. It gives block, but then reduces wounds. So do I use this card to block things, or to not-block things and take less wounds? I think the card would be fine if all it did was increase your Armor and not provide any block.

Discovery - too similar to Tranquility and Motivation skills.

Elemental Forces - granting resistance to units seems fine. The ColdFire Block again opposes the main effect (do I play this to resist the wounds, or to block them?)

Flame Slash - too similar to Fire Bolt IMO.

Inspirational Cheer - Decent I guess.

Eagle Eye - might be overpowered. Especially with something like Blood Rage. Can it be used with Spells also?

Adaptability - Junk. There's already many character skills that do these kinds of things. Putting them all in a card seems clunky.

Guardianship - There's already an Artifact that does this. How different is this from Ice Shield?
 
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Thanks, very good feedback. I'm mostly just doing this for fun, I agree that there is already a good variety of actions in the game. It became even more evident when I was thinking up new cards, because I could not find many ideas that didnt overlap and serve the same purpose with an existing card. So I opted to keep the amount added as low as possible.

The thing that struck me first was the lack of Fire or Ice Attacks (not ranged) in the Advanced Actions...I guess it was reserved for the Spells. The opposing effects might come into play for bigger battles. Maybe a few of these need tweaks though, this is essentially my first draft. It all theory, not play tested in anyway.

EDIT: I updated the advanced actions based on the feedback so far, PLEASE REVOTE if you've already voted. Also, spells posted, please take a look at it.
 
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Einmal ist keinmal
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Shouldn't this be considered a variant and in that forum?
 
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Jonathan Challis
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Faranim wrote:
I don't think the game needs any more cards, but anyway my thoughts...


Actually I think the game needs a lot more cards.

It needs skills a lot more than spells, and spells a lot more than artifacts. I'm already pretty bored with the Advanced skills, and would like to see the number increased by 50-100%. Spells would be nice to have some extra (would have been nice if they were all unique to start with. For artifacts, some more would be good, but it's not a pressing need.

Unlike you though, I think the proportions should be kept pretty close to what they are - I think your concept of adding to the minority groups is very wrong.

That said, I'll only actually add official expansions to my game, and have to wait for those.
 
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Kelanen wrote:
Spells would be nice to have some extra (would have been nice if they were all unique to start with.

What do you mean by this? I thought all the spells were unique.
 
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Jonathan Challis
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Fatesadvent wrote:

Marvel/Judgment
[Blue Mana, Black Mana] Cold Fire Attack 6. Get an additional Cold Fire Attack 1 for each positive Reputation bonus you have.


Do you intend the Reputation bonuses to be lots of small attacks (that can be split up) rather than just increasing the value of the base attack? - because that is how it reads.

Fatesadvent wrote:

Flux/Eclipse
[Blue Mana] Use any of the following abilities up to a total of 3 times (each ability can be used multiple times): target enemy loses earth resistance, target enemy loses wind resistance, one Block becomes Ice Block or one Attack of any type becomes Fire Attack


Earth & Wind Resistance?
 
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Quote:
That said, I'll only actually add official expansions to my game, and have to wait for those.

I think that official expansions will likely be polished enough for serious play (but the creators and play testers not flawless either, look at the horn of wrath). I don't have any problems with a fan made expansion that is well done. Again, I'm more just fooling around that trying to come up with a real expansion (although I've made most of what I've posted for actual play testing).

Quote:
Actually I think the game needs a lot more cards.

I think the card pools are surprisingly small, 40/24 unique cards split between 3-5 players go's fast and after a few games you've seen every card. I guess that helps build familiarity and consistency though (i.e. you can plan better). As I mentioned before, unless you come up with a completely unique mechanic, most card niches have already been filled (or perhaps I'm just not being creative enough).

Quote:
Unlike you though, I think the proportions should be kept pretty close to what they are - I think your concept of adding to the minority groups is very wrong.

I don't really disagree, it just so happens that I had a few more ideas for the minority groups and it worked out to even all the numbers out so I went with it. Honestly, even though the percentage seem like a big change, the actual numbers are really small though, all I did was add like 1 extra card over the other groups to Block (at the expense of the mana generating card category)

Quote:
Do you intend the Reputation bonuses to be lots of small attacks (that can be split up) rather than just increasing the value of the base attack? - because that is how it reads.

I haven't thought about it strongly either way, but I instinctively prefer it the other way than I wrote. It's hard to keep it consistent laugh

Quote:
Earth & Wind Resistance?

Part of my other expansion. I added some monsters that have earth and wind resistance which protects them against green/white special effects and siege/range attacks. See here
 
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Jonathan Challis
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Desiderata wrote:
Kelanen wrote:
Spells would be nice to have some extra (would have been nice if they were all unique to start with.

What do you mean by this? I thought all the spells were unique.


No, there are several duplicates of a number of key spells in there. It become very noticeable after a few games that those spells come up two games out of three...

Fatesadvent wrote:
Quote:
That said, I'll only actually add official expansions to my game, and have to wait for those.

I think that official expansions will likely be polished enough for serious play (but the creators and play testers not flawless either, look at the horn of wrath). I don't have any problems with a fan made expansion that is well done. Again, I'm more just fooling around that trying to come up with a real expansion (although I've made most of what I've posted for actual play testing).


My concern is more on the lines of professional quality components ( I use, and wish to continue using clear sleeves). Nice components are a very big thing for me.

A thought does occur to me that I could perhaps use the card backs from the cards removed/errated after Lost Legion, so that may create a space for a few favourites.
 
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Quote:
My concern is more on the lines of professional quality components ( I use, and wish to continue using clear sleeves). Nice components are a very big thing for me.

I agree, the components are an important factor (fortunately pretty good in MK) but I play MK on my computer (on vassal) so components is a little bit less of an issue. It's just less setup and cleanup when playing solo (the vast majority of my games).

Quote:
No, there are several duplicates of a number of key spells in there. It become very noticeable after a few games that those spells come up two games out of three...

Do you mean that spells are so similar that they're not unique, or that there are actually multiple copies of certain spells? I've looked through them, there is exactly 1 copy of each spell (minus the errata cards of course).
 
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Alison Mandible
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Kelanen wrote:
Fatesadvent wrote:

Marvel/Judgment
[Blue Mana, Black Mana] Cold Fire Attack 6. Get an additional Cold Fire Attack 1 for each positive Reputation bonus you have.


Do you intend the Reputation bonuses to be lots of small attacks (that can be split up) rather than just increasing the value of the base attack? - because that is how it reads.


I believe it doesn't matter. You can combine several cards/skills into a single Attack (of course), but you can't carry over points or attacks from one card to later attacks in the same combat, so if a card for some reason said "Attack 1, Attack 1", it would be identical to "Attack 2".
 
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Alison Mandible
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Kelanen wrote:
No, there are several duplicates of a number of key spells in there. It become very noticeable after a few games that those spells come up two games out of three...


I would check the little numbers ("1/20", etc.) on them. It sounds like you might have a misprinted game!
 
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Quote:
I believe it doesn't matter. You can combine several cards/skills into a single Attack (of course), but you can't carry over points or attacks from one card to later attacks in the same combat, so if a card for some reason said "Attack 1, Attack 1", it would be identical to "Attack 2".

I guess it just depends on how you handle combat and attacks. I can see how some people might treat "an additional Attack 1" as completely separate and usable in hitting another set of enemies. It isn't carrying over since you never applied it to the first set of enemies...though in such a case I'd probably say something like use only on different enemies (like Shield of the Fallen Kings). To say increase the effect of this attack might be a bit less ambiguous...although I hate my wording for it I'm going to use it for now.
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Tom H
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I liked the original stone guard. The fact it's full power could not be used against a single attack was an interesting feature.
 
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Quote:
I liked the original stone guard. The fact it's full power could not be used against a single attack was an interesting feature.

Hmmm, maybe I should bring it back, but with lower numbers since the majority thought it was too good.

I think cards with two opposing effects are better on paper than in practice though. When effects oppose, there generally is no decision making process, there will always be one that is better in any given situation and you will always just just pick the one that is better.

EDIT: further analysis - my original thought was to have it useful in multi-enemy combats but that can be too situational. To ensure the card is viable, I would need with both effects to be individually strong (so that the card is still usable if the other situation/effect is not valid or usable). The block and the armor can't both be individually weak, but having them both strong makes the card really strong. Coming full circle, I should probably not change it. It's tempting to make it +1 to hero armor OR +1 to unit armor though.
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Jonathan Challis
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grasa_total wrote:
Kelanen wrote:
No, there are several duplicates of a number of key spells in there. It become very noticeable after a few games that those spells come up two games out of three...


I would check the little numbers ("1/20", etc.) on them. It sounds like you might have a misprinted game!


I've solved the mystery here...

I bought 2nd Ed MK and LL together. It seems there were errated copies of some spells in LL, which weren't needed because they were already corrected in my MK. They don't have the expansion symbol, have identical text, etc and obviously got mixed in when opening them up together, so I thought a few spells had duplicates.

I'd actually double-checked they weren't new/old versions before, but not spotted this. I guess I'm used to people like FFG who always print the expansion symbol the card was issued with on the errated card, not the symbol (or lack) from the set it replaces. Anyway, all cleared up!
 
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Jonathan Challis
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Fatesadvent wrote:
Quote:
My concern is more on the lines of professional quality components ( I use, and wish to continue using clear sleeves). Nice components are a very big thing for me.

I agree, the components are an important factor (fortunately pretty good in MK) but I play MK on my computer (on vassal) so components is a little bit less of an issue. It's just less setup and cleanup when playing solo (the vast majority of my games).


Ah, that would be the difference - I only play physical copies of games, I have other things I much prefer to play on a computer.

Boardgaming is a very tactile thing to me (and hence my obsession with great components) and even playing solo, I still play the real thing, and always do. Creating new cards makes far more sense if you are playing digitally, and can just add them to a text file.
 
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Actually I'm spending some time actually making images that look like their real life counterpart for my expansion. And vassal has all the pictures from the real game as well. No tactile element though

Edit: Thoughts on some cards and changes (haven't made the changes in the main post though).

Likely changes
Flower Storm: Should it Ice/Fire Block 3 instead of 4? Compared to Flame Wave, 4 per enemy is very high. Also planning to change Heal 1 for each enemy blocked AND defeated.

Comet: Should it be Siege 3 instead of 4? 4 is pretty high, fireball and snowstorm are elemental but give range only. Also gives +1 Attack bonus already.

Meteor: Siege 5 instead of 6. Again, 6 (+2-5 more at no cost) is very high compared to firestorm and blizzard, and you take no wounds.

Unlikely changes
Discovery: is the basic effect of this card good enough? ways to make it better?

Guardianship: block 7-12 seems a bit high, but I think its on par with shield bash (5/10 plus has the benefit of lower enemy armor). From this, I got another idea that currently isn't exactly found on any card (though ice block and shield bash are similar), is Attack can be played as Block.

Leaf Blade: Attack 7-10 for 1 mana is too high? Attack 6-9 maybe better? If we compare AA: Firebolt, its 1 mana for 3 Ranged Fire, Fireball is 1 mana for 5 Ranged Fire (67% more).
For 1 mana, typical AA attacks are around 4-6 attack (chivalry, counterattack, blood rage). 5*1.67 = 8.5, the average of original 7-10 attack.

Lightning Rush: Move 6 --> 5? I don't feel strongly about either one. For 1 mana, 6 move + some other benefit is comparable most AA that give some mobility (e.g.mountain walk gives 5 and +1 hand limit). As above in leaf blade, spells are typically stronger than stronger effects of AA.

White Flash: Move 9 --> 8. Same as lightning rush.

Enchant and Enthrall: The influence amounts are pretty much random right now, I am not good at judging influence, need to test it.

I'm comparing Enchant to Charm. +1-5 mana i think is slightly stronger than +1 crystal or discount for units, so I gave enchant 3 base influence (charm has base 4)

Enthrall I compare to the stronger effect of Call to Glory. You're most likely to recruit an elite which are 8-12 influence. Enthrall gives 8, plus 1-5 fame/reputation. 1 fame or 1 reputation is probably worth more than 1 influence, so enthrall is probably a bit strong at the moment.

Stone Guard: I usually hate taking wounds but this card might be strong end-game. Going from 4 to 7 armor basically lets you forget about blocking, just take 1 wound for every enemy and heal it back afterwards. Maybe something like this would better:
Basic: Hero and up to 1 unit gets +1 armor
Advanced: Hero gets +2 armor, and up to 2 units get +1 armor.
-i'm not sure about giving units +2 armor because units have resistances
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