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Subject: Shutdown: What went wrong, and how do we fix it? rss

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Bela's dead and Vampira won't talk
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As cancer patients miss out on potentially life-saving NIH treatment, millions of dollars a day in GDP and services are lost, government employees go unproductive and potentially unpaid, and rogue, monument-visiting WW2 octogenarians find themselves the nightmarish subject of photo ops with Congressmen and women, both parties and most Americans seem to agree that the government shutdown is a Bad Thing(tm). Beyond that looms the possibility of a debt ceiling battle with potentially catastrophic effects on the US and international economy and markets.

So what went wrong? Where was the systemic failure, how did we get here, and how do we prevent it from ever happening again? If the cause is a particular individual, party, or group, is there a way to mitigate the damage said individual or group can do, for the good of the country? Or is the shutdown, or the possibility of a shutdown (and/or debt default), actually good for the US or our political system?

(Bonus points for not saying "Harry Reid," "Ted Cruz," "Barack Obama," or "John Boehner," or "the Republicans," or "the Democrats" without compelling reason. "Jackass" may or may not be a compelling reason.)
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William Boykin
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le_cygne wrote:
As cancer patients miss out on potentially life-saving NIH treatment, millions of dollars a day in GDP and services are lost, government employees go unproductive and potentially unpaid, and rogue, monument-visiting WW2 octogenarians find themselves the nightmarish subject of photo ops with Congressmen and women, both parties and most Americans seem to agree that the government shutdown is a Bad Thing(tm). Beyond that looms the possibility of a debt ceiling battle with potentially catastrophic effects on the US and international economy and markets.

So what went wrong? Where was the systemic failure, how did we get here, and how do we prevent it from ever happening again? If the cause is a particular individual, party, or group, is there a way to mitigate the damage said individual or group can do, for the good of the country? Or is the shutdown, or the possibility of a shutdown (and/or debt default), actually good for the US or our political system?

(Bonus points for not saying "Harry Reid," "Ted Cruz," "Barack Obama," or "John Boehner," or "the Republicans," or "the Democrats" without compelling reason. "Jackass" may or may not be a compelling reason.)


I don't know how to fix the political system so that a shutdown never happens again....BUT....

If a government shutdown is what it takes to get you to post again, Mr. "We're Out of Mustard", we can have one every other year!!!

Welcome back Le Cygne!

Darilian
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1. We need a Budget so that the Appropriation Bills can follow from the standard procedure, that way there won't be these continual crises about funding the government.

2. The Leaders of each House of Congress need to be able to control their respective caucuses and negotiate in good faith.

3. The debt ceiling needs to be eliminated. It's a farce.
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Pete Goch
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A law that carried the previous year's budget forward if Congress proved unable to approve a new one would take the teeth out of shenanigans like we're seeing now.
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le_cygne wrote:
So what went wrong? Where was the systemic failure, how did we get here, and how do we prevent it from ever happening again?


The problem is one purely of political design.

Basically every American-style presidential political system over the last two hundred years has failed at one point or another. (The United States is a huge outlier in that it's managed to have about 150 years of relative stability.) There are a lot of problems with it: the fact that the president and legislature can both blame each other for whatever problems the country faces is a big part of it. (This doesn't happen in parliamentary democracies. Whatever flaws they might have, whoever is in charge more or less has the buck stop with them.) But it's also not just a matter of blame: both the President and Congress can say, justifiably, that they were elected and therefore have a mandate to do X, and when those mandates clash... well, you get what you have today.

More specifically to America, there is the problem of political parties. The system was designed for loose coalitions of diverse interests, which frankly barely worked 200 years ago and doesn't work at all now because the GOP and to a lesser extent the Democrats are much more akin to traditional parliamentary parties, where dissent is not tolerated. This hasn't been a problem until now because the last century was basically the story of southern conservatives gradually leaving the Democrats to join the Republicans and northern liberal Republicans becoming Democrats, but now that movement is basically finished and intraparty coalitions - which were necessary for most major legislative achievements in the twentieth century - are basically impossible. Between that and the sheer number of ways a minority party can interfere with the legislative agenda of the majority party, you essentially have a legislative body that is almost unable to legislate, which is a recipe for... well, what you have today.
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1. Tea party psychos were elected.

2. Boehner became afraid of tea party psychos.

3. There's a 3?
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Walt
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Do we have to post the First Past the Post Voting Inevitably Leads to Extremism video again?
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Boaty McBoatface
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In addition I think that the system was set up with the assumption that only the best and brightest would win, and that their wisdom would override any dogma, the problem is it was never the case. One reason is that just being wealthy (or at least having wealthy mates) does not intelligence mean. Also you now have (as a result of social changes unrelated to politics) a class of "proud to be thickers" who Alston revel in anti-intellectualism. You are not longer (if you ever were) ruled by the brightest and the best, but the loudest and ignorant
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jeremy cobert
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you assume shutting down the government is a bad thing. I am glad its shut down.
 
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But what about those cancer kids???? Think about the children...
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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jeremycobert wrote:
you assume shutting down the government is a bad thing. I am glad its shut down.
Yes, it will be so good when the tourist trade drys up.
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jbrier
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le_cygne wrote:
So what went wrong?


jeremycobert wrote:
you assume shutting down the government is a bad thing. I am glad its shut down.


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jeremy cobert
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jmilum wrote:
But what about those cancer kids???? Think about the children...


Tell dirty Harry to quit playing games and then the cancer kids can get back to getting treatment.
 
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jeremycobert wrote:
jmilum wrote:
But what about those cancer kids???? Think about the children...


Tell dirty Harry to quit playing games and then the cancer kids can get back to getting treatment.

There's no games. All Boehner has to do is bring the clean CR to the floor for an up or down vote and the whole shebang gets going.
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jeremycobert wrote:
jmilum wrote:
But what about those cancer kids???? Think about the children...


Tell dirty Harry to quit playing games and then the cancer kids can get back to getting treatment.


So now you're not glad it shut down?

And why not tell Boehner to stop playing games and pass what the Senate sent him? They agreed to the budget he asked for. Why can't he take yes for an answer?
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Boaty McBoatface
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jeremycobert wrote:
you assume shutting down the government is a bad thing. I am glad its shut down.
So (presumably) you do not want it to re open?
 
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mightygodking wrote:
le_cygne wrote:
So what went wrong? Where was the systemic failure, how did we get here, and how do we prevent it from ever happening again?


The problem is one purely of political design.

Basically every American-style presidential political system over the last two hundred years has failed at one point or another. (The United States is a huge outlier in that it's managed to have about 150 years of relative stability.) There are a lot of problems with it: the fact that the president and legislature can both blame each other for whatever problems the country faces is a big part of it. (This doesn't happen in parliamentary democracies. Whatever flaws they might have, whoever is in charge more or less has the buck stop with them.) But it's also not just a matter of blame: both the President and Congress can say, justifiably, that they were elected and therefore have a mandate to do X, and when those mandates clash... well, you get what you have today.

More specifically to America, there is the problem of political parties. The system was designed for loose coalitions of diverse interests, which frankly barely worked 200 years ago and doesn't work at all now because the GOP and to a lesser extent the Democrats are much more akin to traditional parliamentary parties, where dissent is not tolerated. This hasn't been a problem until now because the last century was basically the story of southern conservatives gradually leaving the Democrats to join the Republicans and northern liberal Republicans becoming Democrats, but now that movement is basically finished and intraparty coalitions - which were necessary for most major legislative achievements in the twentieth century - are basically impossible. Between that and the sheer number of ways a minority party can interfere with the legislative agenda of the majority party, you essentially have a legislative body that is almost unable to legislate, which is a recipe for... well, what you have today.


Really?

I guess that explains the last 240 years of American failure then.

Moron.
 
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For the info on shutting down the IT stuff, check here (PDF)
 
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DWTripp wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
le_cygne wrote:
So what went wrong? Where was the systemic failure, how did we get here, and how do we prevent it from ever happening again?


The problem is one purely of political design.

Basically every American-style presidential political system over the last two hundred years has failed at one point or another. (The United States is a huge outlier in that it's managed to have about 150 years of relative stability.) There are a lot of problems with it: the fact that the president and legislature can both blame each other for whatever problems the country faces is a big part of it. (This doesn't happen in parliamentary democracies. Whatever flaws they might have, whoever is in charge more or less has the buck stop with them.) But it's also not just a matter of blame: both the President and Congress can say, justifiably, that they were elected and therefore have a mandate to do X, and when those mandates clash... well, you get what you have today.

More specifically to America, there is the problem of political parties. The system was designed for loose coalitions of diverse interests, which frankly barely worked 200 years ago and doesn't work at all now because the GOP and to a lesser extent the Democrats are much more akin to traditional parliamentary parties, where dissent is not tolerated. This hasn't been a problem until now because the last century was basically the story of southern conservatives gradually leaving the Democrats to join the Republicans and northern liberal Republicans becoming Democrats, but now that movement is basically finished and intraparty coalitions - which were necessary for most major legislative achievements in the twentieth century - are basically impossible. Between that and the sheer number of ways a minority party can interfere with the legislative agenda of the majority party, you essentially have a legislative body that is almost unable to legislate, which is a recipe for... well, what you have today.


Really?

I guess that explains the last 240 years of American failure then.

Moron.
He is talking about why the USA is having problem now, it's like a car that has a dodgy spark plug, it works until it stops working.
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Tall_Walt wrote:
Do we have to post the First Past the Post Voting Inevitably Leads to Extremism video again?


Not necessarily extremism, just the elimination of all but two parties.
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DWTripp wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
le_cygne wrote:
So what went wrong? Where was the systemic failure, how did we get here, and how do we prevent it from ever happening again?


The problem is one purely of political design.

Basically every American-style presidential political system over the last two hundred years has failed at one point or another. (The United States is a huge outlier in that it's managed to have about 150 years of relative stability.) There are a lot of problems with it: the fact that the president and legislature can both blame each other for whatever problems the country faces is a big part of it. (This doesn't happen in parliamentary democracies. Whatever flaws they might have, whoever is in charge more or less has the buck stop with them.) But it's also not just a matter of blame: both the President and Congress can say, justifiably, that they were elected and therefore have a mandate to do X, and when those mandates clash... well, you get what you have today.

More specifically to America, there is the problem of political parties. The system was designed for loose coalitions of diverse interests, which frankly barely worked 200 years ago and doesn't work at all now because the GOP and to a lesser extent the Democrats are much more akin to traditional parliamentary parties, where dissent is not tolerated. This hasn't been a problem until now because the last century was basically the story of southern conservatives gradually leaving the Democrats to join the Republicans and northern liberal Republicans becoming Democrats, but now that movement is basically finished and intraparty coalitions - which were necessary for most major legislative achievements in the twentieth century - are basically impossible. Between that and the sheer number of ways a minority party can interfere with the legislative agenda of the majority party, you essentially have a legislative body that is almost unable to legislate, which is a recipe for... well, what you have today.


Really?

I guess that explains the last 240 years of American failure then.

Moron.


You did see the part where he called the US an outlier, right? And I think even you would have to agree that the system failed miserably between 1860 and 1864, so the sign really reads " 149 years without governmental failure."
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jeremycobert wrote:
you assume shutting down the government is a bad thing. I am glad its shut down.


how many threads have you started in the last week whining about how the Democrats won't let the GOP restart some particular government service again, I think we're up to seven so far, is that right
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DWTripp wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
le_cygne wrote:
So what went wrong? Where was the systemic failure, how did we get here, and how do we prevent it from ever happening again?


The problem is one purely of political design.

Basically every American-style presidential political system over the last two hundred years has failed at one point or another. (The United States is a huge outlier in that it's managed to have about 150 years of relative stability.) There are a lot of problems with it: the fact that the president and legislature can both blame each other for whatever problems the country faces is a big part of it. (This doesn't happen in parliamentary democracies. Whatever flaws they might have, whoever is in charge more or less has the buck stop with them.) But it's also not just a matter of blame: both the President and Congress can say, justifiably, that they were elected and therefore have a mandate to do X, and when those mandates clash... well, you get what you have today.

More specifically to America, there is the problem of political parties. The system was designed for loose coalitions of diverse interests, which frankly barely worked 200 years ago and doesn't work at all now because the GOP and to a lesser extent the Democrats are much more akin to traditional parliamentary parties, where dissent is not tolerated. This hasn't been a problem until now because the last century was basically the story of southern conservatives gradually leaving the Democrats to join the Republicans and northern liberal Republicans becoming Democrats, but now that movement is basically finished and intraparty coalitions - which were necessary for most major legislative achievements in the twentieth century - are basically impossible. Between that and the sheer number of ways a minority party can interfere with the legislative agenda of the majority party, you essentially have a legislative body that is almost unable to legislate, which is a recipe for... well, what you have today.


Really?

I guess that explains the last 240 years of American failure then.

Moron.


That was a nice retort, but you forgot to add "We're #1! USA! We're #1!" at the end of your post.
 
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mrspank wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
le_cygne wrote:
So what went wrong? Where was the systemic failure, how did we get here, and how do we prevent it from ever happening again?


The problem is one purely of political design.

Basically every American-style presidential political system over the last two hundred years has failed at one point or another. (The United States is a huge outlier in that it's managed to have about 150 years of relative stability.) There are a lot of problems with it: the fact that the president and legislature can both blame each other for whatever problems the country faces is a big part of it. (This doesn't happen in parliamentary democracies. Whatever flaws they might have, whoever is in charge more or less has the buck stop with them.) But it's also not just a matter of blame: both the President and Congress can say, justifiably, that they were elected and therefore have a mandate to do X, and when those mandates clash... well, you get what you have today.

More specifically to America, there is the problem of political parties. The system was designed for loose coalitions of diverse interests, which frankly barely worked 200 years ago and doesn't work at all now because the GOP and to a lesser extent the Democrats are much more akin to traditional parliamentary parties, where dissent is not tolerated. This hasn't been a problem until now because the last century was basically the story of southern conservatives gradually leaving the Democrats to join the Republicans and northern liberal Republicans becoming Democrats, but now that movement is basically finished and intraparty coalitions - which were necessary for most major legislative achievements in the twentieth century - are basically impossible. Between that and the sheer number of ways a minority party can interfere with the legislative agenda of the majority party, you essentially have a legislative body that is almost unable to legislate, which is a recipe for... well, what you have today.


Really?

I guess that explains the last 240 years of American failure then.

Moron.


That was a nice retort, but you forgot to add "We're #1! USA! We're #1!" at the end of your post.
Well the Republicans are pissing your county down the drain at the moment.
 
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slatersteven wrote:
mrspank wrote:
DWTripp wrote:


Really?

I guess that explains the last 240 years of American failure then.

Moron.


That was a nice retort, but you forgot to add "We're #1! USA! We're #1!" at the end of your post.
Well the Republicans are pissing your county down the drain at the moment.


I was being sarcastic.
 
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