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Subject: Morality vs Economy rss

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Michael Hopcroft
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The discussion over the shutdown has raised a question in my mind.

Which is better: a prosperous but decadent nation or a nation that is mired in poverty but where immorality is not socially tolerated?



 
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Stephen Rost
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Michael Hopcroft wrote:
The discussion over the shutdown has raised a question in my mind.

Which is better: a prosperous but decadent nation or a nation that is mired in poverty but where immorality is not socially tolerated?
Hi Michael. I would caution against the question as it tacitly suggests that the two* are mutually exclusive. I don’t believe that this is the case and I’m willing to venture that for most people, irrespective of their political leanings, they’ll agree that the two dimensions are positively interdependent.

Perhaps you could define what you believe constitutes an immoral or prosperous nation, as I think this is precisely where people will begin to have differences of opinion.

-Edited for clarity

*meaning prosperous and moral
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Xander Fulton
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Michael Hopcroft wrote:
The discussion over the shutdown has raised a question in my mind.

Which is better: a prosperous but decadent nation or a nation that is mired in poverty but where immorality is not socially tolerated?

I'm not sure how accurately tying 'decadent' and 'poverty' are to the question, as there are many examples of the inverse pairings occurring (prosperous nation that doesn't tolerate 'immorality' or otherwise defiance of social norms...see China, S. Korea, Japan...vs a poverty-stricken nation where it's basically every man for himself and anything-goes-decadence...say, Mexico)
 
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Bojan Ramadanovic
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To me "decadent" sounds better then "socially imposed moral views" all by itself. Adding prosperity to it just makes it a bonus.


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Clay
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Well, morality (and thus immorality) isn't actually a thing, so if one had to choose prosperity seems like a better option.


Edit: Slight difference between "immorality" and "immortality."
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Josh
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I woulda say morality is an entirely relative term; my moral nation is your immoral one. Prosperity may have different measures(cars per capita, poundsof food distributed to each citizen per yr, etc. However prosperity can be measured, whatever the measure, objectively. Either everyone has food or not. Everyone has a car, or not. Even if your society follows a certain set of laws the morality of those laws can always be discussed. So simply as a measurable quantity, prosperity is preferable. However I would posit that a completely immoral society is not likely to foster prosperity, and that it is agreeable to have a society of good people in which to be prosperous. The question of what that means has been around since ancient times.
 
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Shawn Fox
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spookyblast wrote:
Hi Michael. I would caution against the question as it tacitly suggests that the two* are mutually exclusive. I don’t believe that this is the case and I’m willing to venture that for most people, irrespective of their political leanings, they’ll agree that the two dimensions are positively interdependent.
See Singapore for a good example of a nation with very strict moral standards and a very strong economy.
 
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Josh
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sfox wrote:
spookyblast wrote:
Hi Michael. I would caution against the question as it tacitly suggests that the two* are mutually exclusive. I don’t believe that this is the case and I’m willing to venture that for most people, irrespective of their political leanings, they’ll agree that the two dimensions are positively interdependent.
See Singapore for a good example of a nation with very strict moral standards and a very strong economy.
From what my Singapore-tenant told me, the strength is fast becoming a front, hiding systemic rot.

 
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William Boykin
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The current shutdown crisis has nothing to do with either the economy or morality.

It is, ultimately, about power.

Can a committed minority change public opinion such that they can convince the Senate and the President to delay implementation of a law that has already been passed, by creating an artificial crisis and then blaming the ill effects of the crisis that they created on the other party?

If this minority group can achieve this, it will fundamentally reshape the nature of bicameral, two party rule in this nation.

Darilian
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J J
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Darilian wrote:
The current shutdown crisis has nothing to do with either the economy or morality.

It is, ultimately, about power.

Can a committed minority change public opinion such that they can convince the Senate and the President to delay implementation of a law that has already been passed, by creating an artificial crisis and then blaming the ill effects of the crisis that they created on the other party?

If this minority group can achieve this, it will fundamentally reshape the nature of bicameral, two party rule in this nation.

Darilian
Well why not, that plot works in books, TV, and film all the time; why not apply it to reality?

(yes, I know why not, but politicians evidently do not, and unfortunately it isn't just yours)
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Bat Profile
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One thing people seem to miss is that you don't HAVE to make a profit to do good business.
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Boaty McBoatface
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Given that morality is a social construct most (all?) societies see themselves as moral (as do most economic systems).
 
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Michael Hopcroft
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Altair IV wrote:
One thing people seem to miss is that you don't HAVE to make a profit to do good business.
But if you don't, what's the point? A business that cannot make a profit cannot remain in business forever. Eventually those who run or own pieces of it are going to demand real returns on their investments.

Admittedly it can take years for a business, especially based on a new concept, to become profitable. In the film Citizen Kane, the morally ambiguous protagonist said he could sustain his newspaper for forty years without making a profit if he had to -- but eventually turned that one New York paper into a national chain (with profound political influence) that made him extraordinarily wealthy (and he started with a large fortune from another field).
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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Michael Hopcroft wrote:
Altair IV wrote:
One thing people seem to miss is that you don't HAVE to make a profit to do good business.
But if you don't, what's the point? A business that cannot make a profit cannot remain in business forever. Eventually those who run or own pieces of it are going to demand real returns on their investments.

Admittedly it can take years for a business, especially based on a new concept, to become profitable. In the film Citizen Kane, the morally ambiguous protagonist said he could sustain his newspaper for forty years without making a profit if he had to -- but eventually turned that one New York paper into a national chain (with profound political influence) that made him extraordinarily wealthy (and he started with a large fortune from another field).
Or they are run as non profit concerns that reward ownership with well paid jobs.
 
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