Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
16 Posts

Level 7 [Omega Protocol]» Forums » Rules

Subject: LOS oddness rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Bryce K. Nielsen
United States
Elk Ridge
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
When I first read the rules of LOS, I was rather skeptical. I seems almost overly complex when compared to say center-to-center or corner-to-corner rules. But when we played, turned out to be not so bad. Pretty quick, "Can I walk there without walking through a wall?" I started to like them.

Then, this happened:



The Commando player was trying to figure out LOS. The first, north-western clone is in LOS of the Recon Specialist but is in covert. The one right below him is out of LOS. The farthest one away is not only in LOS, but also not in cover? The not in cover was kind of making us scratch our heads.

Everything else in the game up to this point seemed to work according to our expectations, from LOS to Stances to Adrenaline. A really good, solid game, and we liked it. But this was an odd situation. It became exacerbated by the Rifleman behind the Commando. He has the exact same LOS.

So A) is our understanding of LOS correct (we want to make sure we're playing correctly)? And B) anyone else find it odd that the only reason the farther away clone doesn't get cover is because he's not right up against the wall?

-shnar
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorge B
Portugal
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Nevermind about cover. I find it odd that any clone other than the NW guy can even be targeted in this situation. But that really appears to be the rules as written.
As I mentioned in the other post, I think an additional corner-to-corner visibility restriction may complement the rules nicely. It prevents bizarre situations such as this.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alexander Juri
Germany
M√ľnchen
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Hm, I am not sure, but I would say that the one away from the wall has cover at well, because one of the shortest paths goes through a wall.
In my game I found it hard not to get cover, because if you are not standing in a direct line to the opponent almost every time you have a path through a wall. But thats fine for me.

The Clone in the Corner is rather strange. Was it my game, I would rule, that the one diagonal move, you could make to determine distance, may not go through a Corner. Then you would have no shortest path without wall contact and therefore could not aim at the clone.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryce K. Nielsen
United States
Elk Ridge
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The Clone in the corner is out of LOS since there's no shortest path that doesn't go through a wall.

The farthest East Clone does not have cover. Being adjacent to a wall does not mean it automatically gets cover. The cover rule is, "If one or more shortest paths pass through a wall space that is adjacent to the target, including implied wall spaces (see p. 11), however, the target gains a cover bonus" None of the LOS 'shortest paths' are going through a wall that is adjacent to that clone. The only wall adjacent to that clone is the south wall, and the LOS paths are not being traced through that wall.

I guess no matter what LOS system you use, there will always be oddities. I guess I can live with it, the rest of the game is really good.

-shnar
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian P Lewis
United Kingdom
Torquay
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It is slightly strange but we think of it as the peering round a corner or leaning to take a shot.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryce K. Nielsen
United States
Elk Ridge
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
tqboz wrote:
It is slightly strange but we think of it as the peering round a corner or leaning to take a shot.


That's how I'd interpreted many of the LOS things, a fluid sort of motion, people peeking around corners, and I was starting to like it. It was getting to the point that figuring out cover was easier than center-to-center LOS that I'm used to from other games.

But with the above situation, I get that the Recon Specialist might be able to see the Clone, but how is the Rifleman able to see him? And in both cases the Clone has no cover? That really seemed odd to our group.

-shnar
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian P Lewis
United Kingdom
Torquay
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah your right I was only looking at the forward figure but the figure at the back is in LOS even if he was 5 squares back he would still be in Los.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian P Lewis
United Kingdom
Torquay
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I never normally use house rules, but I am thinking of using a corner to corner rule to avoid this happening, still counting shortest path etc but only if there is a straight line between any two corners of shooter and targets square is shot allowed.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Vasilis
Greece
Heraklion Crete
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I interpret it that the one hugging the wall is using it to blind fire and use suppressing fire while the one standing in a clear area without anything nearby to protect him from the bullets flying around him is in trouble.

What I don't understand personally is why figures do not block LOS. Why make things simpler when you have stances and movement quirks and abilities to potentially use to take advantage of the dynamic LOS obstacles that figures offer?

Can anyone who has played a lot offer any insight on this? Is it going to break the game balance in favor of the Overseer or the Commandos if LOS is blocked from figures too? I'm talking about LOS only, not cover. To get cover you still need a wall.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryce K. Nielsen
United States
Elk Ridge
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think figures not blocking LOS adds to the elegance and simplicity of the game. I find myself rarely thinking about LOS, as it just works. If figures blocked LOS, I'd be spending a lot more of my game time figuring out LOS and a lot less of my game time actually gaming.

I like the LOS rules as they are, even if there's the odd long distance cover shot.

-shnar
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
E. Strathmeyer
United States
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
I'm not an expert, but I agree with your interpretation of the rules. Neither commando has LOS to the bottom-left enemy. Both have LOS to the other two enemies. The bottom-right enemy does not have cover.

I agree that the cover rules seems a little bit weird here. You could rationalize it by saying that the one clone can more easily duck right up against the wall, while the other is more out in the open?

In general, I feel like the LOS rules are really streamlined. They have a few wonky edge cases, especially when dealing with a range 8 weapon, but overall they work better than other light LOS systems for simulating "pop out from behind the wall"-style ranged combat. They could have added more rules to deal with these edge cases, but I'm glad they didn't.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
E. Strathmeyer
United States
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Wait! I've found the answer. It's in the errata. http://files.privateerpress.com/level7/docs/LEVEL_7_OmegaPro...

"A shortest path cannot use two diagonals in a row unless it uses only diagonals."

There's a diagram on page 2 of that PDF.

Unfortunately, it makes LOS a little harder to trace than the ol' parallelogram, but it makes it a lot less bendy.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Vasilis
Greece
Heraklion Crete
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
strathmeyer wrote:
Wait! I've found the answer. It's in the errata. http://files.privateerpress.com/level7/docs/LEVEL_7_OmegaPro...

"A shortest path cannot use two diagonals in a row unless it uses only diagonals."

There's a diagram on page 2 of that PDF.

Unfortunately, it makes LOS a little harder to trace than the ol' parallelogram, but it makes it a lot less bendy.


I agree. The newest LOS system needs a few more seconds to fully grasp but it solves all problems with bendy LOS AND allows for more cover opportunities. I like it!!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Henrik Schmidt
Germany
Kiel
flag msg tools
Designer of Titans of Steel - www.titansofsteel.de
badge
Designer of Titans of Steel - www.titansofsteel.de
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So both bottom clones are not in LOS of either commando, right ?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Vasilis
Greece
Heraklion Crete
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
LarkinVB wrote:
So both bottom clones are not in LOS of either commando, right ?


Right, they are not in LOS.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryce K. Nielsen
United States
Elk Ridge
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If the right-most clone was one space further right (and of course there was no wall), then he would be in LOS. But now, he is not.

It's a decent compromise. It feels a little fiddly, but it does remove all but the most extreme LOS oddity.

-shnar
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.