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Subject: My only remaining real complaint with STAW, and it's all about the Klingons. rss

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Nicholas Bazzano
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I really like this game. I came into it with my own worries, as well as all the complaints I read as the game was being released. From the less important paint job complaints, to the still very annoying tiny Enterprise complaint, and even my own personal worries that the game would be too much of a fighter game like X-wing. And thankfully, besides that ridiculous tiny Enterprise, almost all my complaints have faded away, to be replaced for my love of this game. My only real remaining complaints, and I know they're still not too important in the grand scheme of things, resolves around Klingon issues.

Firstly, I'm very unhappy that not only didn't we get a real Captain card for Kor, but we instead got Kor as a generic Klingon captain. Kor and Kang and Koloth are the three heroes of Klingon 23rd century history. They are the Kirk and Spock and Pike for the Klingons, and we would still have a chance to get Kor if we had just gotten some random generic Klingon instead of using him. It's even more galling now that the TOS Romulan Warbird has been announced, and fans of pure faction and era builds like myself won't be able to have these three heroes leading a raid against the Romulans or Federation without some kind of proxie card action.

My second gripe is this weird confusion that has developed somewhere along the lines between the Klingon Birds of Prey, regarding the lack of differences between the B'rel and K'vort classes. Treating them as a single class of ship, instead of using the actual Star Trek database description of a scout and cruiser class of ship. The only thing that upset me about this, is the loss of creating both Lord Kruge and General Chang's BoPs from ST3 & 6, or the Duras' BoP from ST:Generations. And, this is another of those things that could have been at least left open as an option, if they had just used K'vort as the class of ship for the two BoPs coming out for STAW, and then left open the possibility of still adding the B'rel in later on.

I know these issues can be seen as pretty nitpicky, but these things are mostly upsetting because they could have been alleviated if they had just been omitted instead being used as they were. And then, I wouldn't have any real complaints left. So, how about it Mr Andrew Park, is there still time to at least take care of the BoP issue?
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Fastback M
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Bravo sir! I too (being a huge TOS fan) was a bit upset at the treatment of Kor. I only hope the DS9 version will show up later...
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Scott Kelly
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This same stuff has been posted every few weeks.

Every fanboy needs to slow down and be patient. They did the exact same thing to Admiral Ross with the USS Defiant, making an Admiral a 1-skill generic captain. The generic Romulan captain on the Krayton looks almost like Nog. The generic captain isn't named Kor or Ross, and they aren't disrespecting that character. There are only so many screen capture pictures of captains that appear in any of the series. As long as they keep going that route with the cards (as opposed to using drawings/illustrations), this is going to happen.
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drscottkelly wrote:
This same stuff has been posted every few weeks.

Every fanboy needs to slow down and be patient. They did the exact same thing to Admiral Ross with the USS Defiant, making an Admiral a 1-skill generic captain. The generic Romulan captain on the Krayton looks almost like Nog. The generic captain isn't named Kor or Ross, and they aren't disrespecting that character. There are only so many screen capture pictures of captains that appear in any of the series. As long as they keep going that route with the cards (as opposed to using drawings/illustrations), this is going to happen.
I agree with this post, when I saw Admiral Ross as a generic captain in the preview it made me kind of sad.

We MAY eventually get a "Captain Worf" card when the Borg show up if there is a second Defiant release though.
 
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Jonathan Bruce
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Worf should definitely have the "Ramming Speed" special ability :devil:
 
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Nova Cat
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There's no rule saying that they can't make a unique captain card for a captain whose picture has been used on a generic captain. Both Kor and Ross could make appearances in future expansions.

And that's really the only thing left to say: There are many expansions left to come. Don't expect everything right out of the gate.
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Nova Cat
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DonMegel wrote:
Worf should definitely have the "Ramming Speed" special ability devil
I would like to see a Worf captain card, that's dual-faction for Federation and Klingons (late DS9-era when he was teaming up with Martok).

"Good Day to Die"
-Elite Upgrade-
You get +2 attack dice when attacking at range 1 while not cloaked with no active shields.
This upgrade costs +5 SP for any captain other than Worf.
SP: 4
 
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Nicholas Bazzano
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Novacat wrote:
DonMegel wrote:
Worf should definitely have the "Ramming Speed" special ability devil
I would like to see a Worf captain card, that's dual-faction for Federation and Klingons (late DS9-era when he was teaming up with Martok).

"Good Day to Die"
-Elite Upgrade-
You get +2 attack dice when attacking at range 1 while not cloaked with no active shields.
This upgrade costs +5 SP for any captain other than Worf.
SP: 4
Seems like the Jem'hadar "suicide" upgrade will already do this.

As for the argument to be patient, I realize we may get more versions of people along the way, but Kor is already on that little captains card you place on the base of a ship. Do we really expect to see multiple versions of the same actor with different skill levels for when they make a non-generic Kor or Ross? I'm going to have two different Kor's sitting on the base of the same Klingon ship, but with different skill ratings? My point wasn't so much about disrespecting Kor, as how it makes it harder to do him justice later on by having already used him as a generic.

The argument about lacking screen shots is plain silly. TOS Klingons made so many appearances, even without being in an actual ship, that they literally had dozens of other Klingons they could have chosen from for the TOS generic.

They have kind of painted themselves into a corner with some of these generic choices, and are doing the same with the Klingon BoP. I was just pointing out this simple fact, realizing it's probably too late to save the BoP, but hoping they don't repeat this corner painting for someone else down the road.
 
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Andrew Parks
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1) The image of Kor or any other character as a generic captain will not prohibit us from using a unique version of that character in the future.

2) There will be a K'Vort ship with different stats than the B'rel.

Andrew
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Nova Cat
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Andrew Parks wrote:
1) The image of Kor or any other character as a generic captain will not prohibit us from using a unique version of that character in the future.

2) There will be a K'Vort ship with different stats than the B'rel.

Andrew
Cheers!
 
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Von Pickles
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Lets just hope this game does not end up the way of that other awesome pre-painted game A&A WaS!!!
 
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VonPickles wrote:
Lets just hope this game does not end up the way of that other awesome pre-painted game A&A WaS!!!
Why? What happened to Axis & Allies War at Sea?
 
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Ryan Caputo
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The problem I see is this; have you gone into a game store, and seen where this game is located? Right next to X-Wing, which quite frankly has minis and box art that makes your jaw drop. Lets just say not many are picking up the Attack Wing box to look. Not redoing or even washing the minis.....huge mistake.

 
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Scott Kelly
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ryolacap wrote:
The problem I see is this; have you gone into a game store, and seen where this game is located? Right next to X-Wing, which quite frankly has minis and box art that makes your jaw drop. Lets just say not many are picking up the Attack Wing box to look. Not redoing or even washing the minis.....huge mistake.
You mean FFG has actually fixed all of the supply issues to get enough X-wing pieces into stores? That is obvious sarcasm, because they haven't, and the game has been out quite a while now. You can't walk into a game store and see them both together because FFG is screwing X-Wing up. The X-wing supply issues aren't because of crazy demand, but because FFG has frakked it up. Don't even get into the major issues with FFG supposed 'tournament/event support,' which WizKids has tremendously more experience in (although, perhaps not perfect). Every game store I have been to has said the exact same thing.

People aren't buying the games based on comparing the miniatures. For the most part, the people who are are likely to repaint them anyways. They are buying them because they are more of a fanboy of one or the other, and/or their store/group supports one over the other.
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Scott Kelly
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MaximumDT wrote:
We MAY eventually get a "Captain Worf" card when the Borg show up if there is a second Defiant release though.
There should be a Captain Worf card coming in December, which may be part of why you didn't see one with the Defiant. The Koraga was captained by Worf. It was the ship he was captaining in DS9 before it got destroyed by the Jem Hadar. He escaped in an escape pod and was later rescued in the Badlands.
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C. E. Freeman
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ryolacap wrote:
The problem I see is this; have you gone into a game store, and seen where this game is located? Right next to X-Wing, which quite frankly has minis and box art that makes your jaw drop. Lets just say not many are picking up the Attack Wing box to look. Not redoing or even washing the minis.....huge mistake.

There is no doubt that a shiny package will catch your eye. There also is a lot to be said for educated consumers who know what they are looking for. Game stores will have a higher percentage of knowledgable customers and Star Trek fans than say, Target. ST:AW is selling great at my FLGS, they are very happy with it. It's not having any problem competing with SW:XW even though the sit side by side on the shelf. I think people who have issues with the appearance of the minis or box continually overestimate how much of a problem that is to the public at large. I'm not saying that these issues aren't real or important to some, just that they are less noticeable and important to most consumers than they are to a very vocal minority of people it really bothers a lot.
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Scott Kelly
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Tacullu64 wrote:
I think people who have issues with the appearance of the minis or box continually overestimate how much of a problem that is to the public at large. I'm not saying that these issues aren't real or important to some, just that they are less noticeable and important to most consumers than they are to a very vocal minority of people it really bothers a lot.
+1

I use to say that Wizards of the Coast could fold up $100 bills and place them inside packages of MTG cards, and people would complain about how they were folded.
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drscottkelly wrote:
Tacullu64 wrote:
I think people who have issues with the appearance of the minis or box continually overestimate how much of a problem that is to the public at large. I'm not saying that these issues aren't real or important to some, just that they are less noticeable and important to most consumers than they are to a very vocal minority of people it really bothers a lot.
+1

I use to say that Wizards of the Coast could fold up $100 bills and place them inside packages of MTG cards, and people would complain about how they were folded.
A WotC stopped putting paper money in A&A games and it really sucks. I personally stopped buying A&A games because of the decline of production value.

B. Yes fans of Star Trek might pick it up, fans of X-wing might pick it up, knowledgeable consumers might pick it up. a lot of mights that would have been definitely with better eye candy, that my boys is simply a fact.
 
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fastback64 wrote:
Bravo sir! I too (being a huge TOS fan) was a bit upset at the treatment of Kor. I only hope the DS9 version will show up later...
I thought it was odd, too, but I figured that at least all the generic Klingons are the cool-looking Kor rather than someone less memorable and iconic.

They could still do a Captain Kor. All you need is another photo of Kor from a different angle under different lighting. Perhaps in the next wave when they issue the K'Tinga?
 
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Stormtrooper721 wrote:
VonPickles wrote:
Lets just hope this game does not end up the way of that other awesome pre-painted game A&A WaS!!!
Why? What happened to Axis & Allies War at Sea?
For me, blind collectible killed it. WizKids are doing it right with STAW.
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C. E. Freeman
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ryolacap wrote:
drscottkelly wrote:
Tacullu64 wrote:
I think people who have issues with the appearance of the minis or box continually overestimate how much of a problem that is to the public at large. I'm not saying that these issues aren't real or important to some, just that they are less noticeable and important to most consumers than they are to a very vocal minority of people it really bothers a lot.
+1

I use to say that Wizards of the Coast could fold up $100 bills and place them inside packages of MTG cards, and people would complain about how they were folded.
A WotC stopped putting paper money in A&A games and it really sucks.

B. Yes fans of Star Trek might pick it up, fans of X-wing might pick it up, knowledgeable consumers might pick it up. a lot of mights that would have been definitely with better eye candy, that my boys is simply a fact.
I would say do pick it up. Look, the game is still young, we won't really have an idea what impact mini quality or packaging is going to have for a while yet. I honestly am dumbfounded that there is a Star Trek Tactics III coming out, yet it will be here soon. Attack Wing is ten times the game Tactics is. I predict a successful future for ST:AW.
 
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Tacullu64 wrote:
ryolacap wrote:
drscottkelly wrote:
Tacullu64 wrote:
I think people who have issues with the appearance of the minis or box continually overestimate how much of a problem that is to the public at large. I'm not saying that these issues aren't real or important to some, just that they are less noticeable and important to most consumers than they are to a very vocal minority of people it really bothers a lot.
+1

I use to say that Wizards of the Coast could fold up $100 bills and place them inside packages of MTG cards, and people would complain about how they were folded.
A WotC stopped putting paper money in A&A games and it really sucks.

B. Yes fans of Star Trek might pick it up, fans of X-wing might pick it up, knowledgeable consumers might pick it up. a lot of mights that would have been definitely with better eye candy, that my boys is simply a fact.
I would say do pick it up. Look, the game is still young, we won't really have an idea what impact mini quality or packaging is going to have for a while yet. I honestly am dumbfounded that there is a Star Trek Tactics III coming out, yet it will be here soon. Attack Wing is ten times the game Tactics is. I predict a successful future for ST:AW.
I agree, I own doubles, I am also volunteering my time to run the event, I am purely speaking on a marketing level and as people walk up to check out my event, I offer them a try with my ships. So far the #1 reason people are passing is the minis, that's all I am saying, just a simple fact. From personal experience I could solidly say they are losing about 30% of their potential customers.
 
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C. E. Freeman
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ryolacap wrote:
Tacullu64 wrote:
ryolacap wrote:
drscottkelly wrote:
Tacullu64 wrote:
I think people who have issues with the appearance of the minis or box continually overestimate how much of a problem that is to the public at large. I'm not saying that these issues aren't real or important to some, just that they are less noticeable and important to most consumers than they are to a very vocal minority of people it really bothers a lot.
+1

I use to say that Wizards of the Coast could fold up $100 bills and place them inside packages of MTG cards, and people would complain about how they were folded.
A WotC stopped putting paper money in A&A games and it really sucks.

B. Yes fans of Star Trek might pick it up, fans of X-wing might pick it up, knowledgeable consumers might pick it up. a lot of mights that would have been definitely with better eye candy, that my boys is simply a fact.
I would say do pick it up. Look, the game is still young, we won't really have an idea what impact mini quality or packaging is going to have for a while yet. I honestly am dumbfounded that there is a Star Trek Tactics III coming out, yet it will be here soon. Attack Wing is ten times the game Tactics is. I predict a successful future for ST:AW.
I agree, I own doubles, I am also volunteering my time to run the event, I am purely speaking on a marketing level and as people walk up to check out my event, I offer them a try with my ships. So far the #1 reason people are passing is the minis, that's all I am saying, just a simple fact. From personal experience I could solidly say they are losing about 30% of their potential customers.
I'm sure you are honest about what you are seeing. However your experiences are a tiny slice if the marketing pie. I don't think that is enough data to project a 30% loss of business for ST:AW. If Attack Wing is losing 30% of its projected sales Whizkids could be making little or no profit on AW. That is a huge number.

Edit: While I have read it many times on these forums, I have never personally heard someone say they weren't buying Attack Wing because of the quality of the minis. The #1 reason I hear is lack of funds at the moment.
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Ryan Caputo
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Well the way I see it, you have guys who play Miniatures into 2 categories

A. Mechanics - like me Guys who really dig the mechanics of a game, to see how it works, and use minis because that what you use the mechanics on.

B. Minis - Guys who almost need awesomely painted, scaled, models, and play with the mechanics because those are the rules.

X wing - Almost nails A, knocks B out of the park - both types buy it
Attack Wing - nails the A, and blows B - B type wont buy it

Brick and mortar rely more on impulse buys which rely on eye candy

This is from trying to convince people to buy FYI
 
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VonPickles wrote:
Lets just hope this game does not end up the way of that other awesome pre-painted game A&A WaS!!!
Yeah, I'm not sure I get this comment. WaS had a great run with a ton of expansions. I own the complete collection with a lot of multiples, and there are few WW2 fleet actions that I can't replicate with my collection. Let's hope Attack Wing has as successful a run as WaS!
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