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Re: Plugged In - Albany, NY OR How I was almost DQ'd in the Finals.
I don't recall intentional draws being mentioned in the tournament rules.
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Gilles
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Re: Plugged In - Albany, NY OR How I was almost DQ'd in the Finals.
I guess they are refering to this part of the tournament rules:
Quote:
Unsportsmanlike Conduct
Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate manner, and to play within the rules and not abuse them. This prohibits maintaining an illegal game state, colluding with another player, behaving inappropriately, scouting decks, artificially manufacturing the results of a game, treating an opponent with a lack of courtesy or respect, etc. The TO, at his or her sole discretion, may remove players from the tournament for unsportsmanlike conduct.
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Alejandro G.
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Re: Plugged In - Albany, NY OR How I was almost DQ'd in the Finals.
You should have been disqualified sorry. It is in the tournament rules.

Unsportsmanlike Conduct: Page 2

Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate
manner, and to play within the rules and not abuse them.

This prohibits maintaining an illegal game state, colluding
with another player
, behaving inappropriately, scouting decks,
artificially manufacturing the results of a game, treating an
opponent with a lack of courtesy or respect, etc. The TO, at his
or her sole discretion, may remove players from the tournament
for unsportsmanlike conduct.

You had absolutely zero room to put up a "small protest"... Poor decision on your part to be a part of that.
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El-ad David Amir
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Re: Plugged In - Albany, NY OR How I was almost DQ'd in the Finals.
I'm glad to see that Damon kept the friendly spirit of the tournament.

Could you post deck lists, please? How many players attended? Who ran the tournament? Any idea what were the top decks?

Thanks for the report
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Peter Hodges
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Re: Plugged In - Albany, NY OR How I was almost DQ'd in the Finals.
Hey I was there too! Instead of making a new thread, I figure I'll just add my report here.

Back in Troy, NY for alumni weekend at my college, I figured why not go play some Netrunner? Loaded up into a car with my best netrunning buddy Cortez and after a rough start to the morning, headed off to Zombie Planet.

Neither of us had bought Opening Moves yet (since I haven't been in town at all, we haven't had anyone to play against). We bought our packs there but decided since we hadn't tested any of the cards yet, we'd play without them (fully expecting that to bite us in the ass).

I entered with my Weyland/Anarch combo.

Decklists: Weyland
Identity:
Weyland Consortium: Building a Better World (Core)


Total Cards: (49)
Agenda (11)
Government Contracts (A Study in Static #77) x3
Hostile Takeover (Core #94) x3
Posted Bounty (Core #95) x2
Project Atlas (What Lies Ahead #18) x3

Asset (0)
ICE (18)
Archer (Core #101) x3
Data Raven (Core #88) x2 ■■
Enigma (Core #111) x2
Hadrian's Wall (Core #102) x3
Ice Wall (Core #103) x3
Shadow (Core #104) x3
Tollbooth (Core #90) x2 ■■

Operation (18)
Green Level Clearance (A Study in Static #70) x3 ■
SEA Source (Core #86) x1 ■■
Beanstalk Royalties (Core #98) x3
Hedge Fund (Core #110) x3
Oversight AI (A Study in Static #79) x3
Power Grid Overload (Trace Amount #37) x2
Scorched Earth (Core #99) x3

Upgrade (2)
Corporate Troubleshooter (Core #65) x2 ■


Total Agenda Points: 20

Influence Values Totals -
Haas-Bioroid: 5
Jinteki: 0
NBN: 10
The Weyland Consortium: 44

Decklists: Anarch
Identity:
Noise: Hacker Extraordinaire (Core)


Total Cards: (45)
Event (6)
Demolition Run (Core #3) x1
Levy AR Lab Access (Creation and Control #35) x1 ■■■
Stimhack (Core #4) x1
Sure Gamble (Core #50) x3

Hardware (4)
Grimoire (Core #6) x2
Clone Chip (Creation and Control #38) x2 ■■

Program (27)
Corroder (Core #7) x1
Crypsis (Core #51) x3
Datasucker (Core #8) x3
Djinn (Core #9) x3
Imp (What Lies Ahead #3) x3
Medium (Core #10) x3
Mimic (Core #11) x1
Nerve Agent (Cyber Exodus #41) x3
Parasite (Core #12) x3
Sahasrara (Creation and Control #47) x3 ■■
Yog.0 (Core #14) x1

Resource (8)
Aesop's Pawnshop (Core #47) x1 ■■
Daily Casts (Creation and Control #53) x3
Kati Jones (Humanity's Shadow #91) x2
Public Sympathy (Cyber Exodus #50) x2

Influence Values Totals -
Anarch: 50
Criminal: 0
Shaper: 15

Round One (NBN/Shaper)
My first opponent was NBN (Core)/Kate. I was able to win against his NBN deck before he really got going. And his Kate deck never found a Code Gate breaker (which I abused to full extent)
2-0

Round Two (NBN/Shaper)
The fastest round of all time. Seriously I think the whole round was done in 5-6 minutes. First game I was running against NBN (The World is Yours*) and ignored his remote server on my first time. I installed Medium and dug into deck getting 6 agenda points on my first turn. My next turn I played an Imp (putting my down to 3 cards) and dug without seeing another agenda. On his 3rd turn: Advance and score the Breaking News in the remote and Scorched Earth. He then revealed he had been milled the other two copies from my 2 virus plays. The second game was very similar but with Sea Source against his Kate.
3-1

Round Three (Jinteki/Shaper)
After watching this opponent play the challenge deck, I knew he was going to be tough to beat. I played against his Chaos Theory deck in an extremely exciting game of back and forth. The most exciting part was when the score was 6-5 (me) and I had a Project Atlas with 1 counter on it. He played another R&D Interface (totally 3) and Maker's Eyed my deck for 6 cards off the top. He saw nothing until the last card, my last Hostile Takeover. After a lot of internal debate, I used my token on my turn to grab my last Project Atlas and threw it in my remote I knew he couldn't get past. Unfortunately, the shuffle can put anything on top and his next run won him the game.
The Jinteki game was even more riveting. He trashed one of my Kati's EARLY so I was starved for money the entire game. I couldn't make it into his hand the whole game even though I knew he was agenda starved. He scored all three Nisei's in his deck which allowed him to stop every run that was a problem. But my final dig at R&D allowed my a lucky win before he would've won on the next turn.
4-2

Round 4 (Jinteki/Criminal)
Holden and I had a great round. Where some other players were serious, we were joking the entire game. The open mocking he made at me just daring me to run his servers is my natural environment for playing Netrunner and he really put me at ease for our match.
The first game was against his Andromeda deck. His first turn, Account Siphon (of course...) and he took the tag from my Shadow guarding HQ. My next turn I just took some money. And then...I donno, he said it was the tacos. He didn't clear tags and just played cards. Scorched Earth.
The second game was against his Jinteki deck. As usual with Jinteki, I was paranoid about getting smashed in the face by unexpected things. I was "positive" an asset was a Ronin (later revealed to be a trap) and I was "positive" something was a Snare (later revealed to not be one). He kept using Celebrity Gift so I knew there wasn't anything in his hand. In the end, my lucky mills and Medium Digs won the game.
6-2

Round 5 (NBN/Anarch)
My final opponent played Anarch/NBN. We highfived over playing Anarch because all the traitors left after PW stopped being cool. He ran first showing off the powerhouse of the new virus money generation card. It was the first time I've ever had Action Paralysis from Netrunner. I was just deadlocked. Eventually I just thought "Fuck It" and gave him all the money in the world. All 5 (maybe 6...not sure) of his point were grabbed from the discard pile. But it allowed me to sneak by 2 Government Contracts and a Project Atlas for the win.
My Noise deck had been running on luck all day and this game was no different. I grabbed 5 agenda points in the first or second turn and it didn't take long to grab the rest.
8-2

Results
I really wasn't expecting to win today. In the end I "tied" for 1st and then the other gentleman won on strength of schedule. I think we were both a little upset we didn't get to play against each other but it didn't matter because we both got the same stuff. It was a fun day and I put up a good fight against the Weyland challenge deck until I died from Meat Damage.
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Benjamin Kaiser
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Re: Plugged In - Albany, NY OR How I was almost DQ'd in the Finals.
I played in this tournament as well - I went 5 and 5 so I was firmly in the middle. My Kit deck won all but the last match, but my HB:EtF only won one match. I'll post decklists when Meteor's back up.

To OP: you absolutely should have been DQ'd for attempting to fix the results of the tournament. I suppose that because it was a casual environment Damon agreed to let you stay, but if you had gotten away with that it would have been incredibly unfair to other players who were in the running for the top two slots. Even your conduct in the first match, which I spectated, was toeing the line of collusion.
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Re: Plugged In - Albany, NY OR How I was almost DQ'd in the Finals.
E1337 Pete wrote:

Round Two (NBN/Shaper)
The fastest round of all time. Seriously I think the whole round was done in 5-6 minutes. First game I was running against NBN (The World is Yours*) and ignored his remote server on my first time. I installed Medium and dug into deck getting 6 agenda points on my first turn. My next turn I played an Imp (putting my down to 3 cards) and dug without seeing another agenda. On his 3rd turn: Advance and score the Breaking News in the remote and Scorched Earth. He then revealed he had been milled the other two copies from my 2 virus plays. The second game was very similar but with Sea Source against his Kate.
3-1
Winning that game was so unexpected I love Making News. Glad you did well afterwards! I finished 4 with a record of 7-3.

As for the result fixing, it is a common practice in Magic. Netrunner being only one year old and the fact that a lot of players are or were magic players, DQing them would have been very harsh. Especially since they didn't really keep it a secret. I must say that Netrunner tournaments are night and day versus Magic. All players are very laid back and friendly! It was the same experience over at Gen Con.
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Re: Plugged In - Albany, NY OR How I was almost DQ'd in the Finals.
As I don't feel like making a new thread on the Albany tour stop...

I had alot of fun! I was pretty noobish, having only been playing for 2 months (and my first LCG/CCG, and first tourney), yet everyone was incredibly friendly. My poor Chaos Theory and Weyland decks lost every match I was a part of (and ended up dropping and leaving early due to other commitments), but if this is the way these tournaments go, I'm sad I didn't get into a CCG/LCG game earlier.

Must have been around 30 people playing netrunner, from all over the place! Pre-game I spent talking to Albany locals, ran into a car load of people from Rochester, my first match was part of a trio from Ottawa Canada (who also played well in the Gen-con tourney, I had no chance!), met people from all over the North East. The staff was amazingly friendly and patient.

Special thanks to my round 2 opponent from Rochester who made sure I didn't cheat myself out of credits during my numerous failed stimhack runs. And great respect to the guy who came with a core only deck and still tried his best (only heard about that one in passing). Wish I could have stayed the full 5 rounds.

If the tour is coming your way and you are feeling shy about competing, just go! It was an amazing experience and I thank everyone who was present who made it fun. I was into this game before, but this took my enthusiasm to a new level.
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Jeff Gum
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Re: Plugged In - Albany, NY OR How I was almost DQ'd in the Finals.
As another crossover Magic player, saying that an intentional draw should lead to a DQ for "colluding with your opponent" strikes me as so incredibly stick-up-your-ass asinine that it's ridiculous.

I've always seen it as sportsmanlike for a top ranked player to offer a draw to the lower seed, since you both have nothing to gain and very little to lose from playing.
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Alejandro G.
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Re: Plugged In - Albany, NY OR How I was almost DQ'd in the Finals.
Well OP got 7th instead of 2nd so it looks like it backfired on him.

Also tired of crossover magic players thinking this is the same game and can be treated as such.

OP took out the "friendly spirit" of the game and manipulated the scoring.
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Jeff Gum
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Re: Plugged In - Albany, NY OR How I was almost DQ'd in the Finals.
I don't understand how agreeing to tie rather than both players risking their standing over a match that could potentially be inconsequential takes the friendly spirit out of the game. If anything, I'd say the opposite is true. I'd find it a little rude if I offered to tie with a lower seeded player to protect both of our spots and he insisted we played the match; it's not like he or she is doing that because he's concerned about the lower seeds' tiebreakers, he's doing it to get himself ahead.
 
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Re: Plugged In - Albany, NY OR How I was almost DQ'd in the Finals.
xpiredsodapop wrote:
Well OP got 7th instead of 2nd so it looks like it backfired on him.

Also tired of crossover magic players thinking this is the same game and can be treated as such.

OP took out the "friendly spirit" of the game and manipulated the scoring.
Op Should have got 2nd. I will be forming a post on this in the near future and see if we can't get a discussion there so as to not further derail this thread.


OP Congrats on the strong finish and I am glad everyone had fun! I may have to try NBN again after hearing how it ran.
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Re: Plugged In - Albany, NY OR How I was almost DQ'd in the Finals.
I couldn't resist...

I'm amazed how people say it's sportsmanlike and friendly to ID in tournaments where practically the whole fair play idea goes out the window.

Yeah sure, if you only care about the prize and not caring how you go about it, go ahead. But messing around with the scores of the other players by manipulating the score of yourself and another player in other ways than just playing the game is WRONG.

Play the game, see where you end up on your playing skill alone, i think that's fair for everyone involved in a tournament. Did you ever think that by ID-ing, you just shafted other people that maybe deserved to be in the top 8 more than you?



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Re: Plugged In - Albany, NY OR How I was almost DQ'd in the Finals.
Dixi82 wrote:
I'm amazed how people say it's sportsmanlike and friendly to ID in tournaments where practically the whole fair play idea goes out the window.
It is a game. It is supposed to be fun. When you lose standing for losing a match and gain nothing for winning a match, neither of those options are fun. ID is the closet of the three to meeting the point of the game.
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Jeremy Owens
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Re: Plugged In - Albany, NY OR How I was almost DQ'd in the Finals.
Zaknafean wrote:
...Special thanks to my round 2 opponent from Rochester who made sure I didn't cheat myself out of credits during my numerous failed stimhack runs...
My pleasure. I'm glad that the event increased your enthusiasm for the game.
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Re: Plugged In - Albany, NY OR How I was almost DQ'd in the Finals.
Dixi82 wrote:
Play the game, see where you end up on your playing skill alone, i think that's fair for everyone involved in a tournament. Did you ever think that by ID-ing, you just shafted other people that maybe deserved to be in the top 8 more than you?
If they deserved it more, they wouldn't be in lower standings after 4 rounds.
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Bryan Blumklotz
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Re: Plugged In - Albany, NY OR How I was almost DQ'd in the Finals.
Magic? THIS. IS. NETRUNNER!



All joking aside. Neither is a better rule. Magic has its rules and Netrunner has its rules. Be aware and have fun.
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Thomas R
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Re: Plugged In - Albany, NY OR How I was almost DQ'd in the Finals.
Saracenus wrote:
All joking aside. Neither is a better rule. Magic has its rules and Netrunner has its rules. Be aware and have fun.
I hate furthering the derailing of a thread about what sounds like a sweet tournament, but I think it's pretty easily arguable that Magic's rule is better AS A RULE. That's because, simply put, it's objectively enforceable. The Netrunner rule is one of those super-fuzzy subjective ones. After all, if two players collude to draw, it basically boils down to a competition between the acting ability of the players and the mind-reading ability of the judge/tournament organizer. It's generally considered to be better for a game if you simply allow people to draw/forfeit when it's beneficial within the structure of the tournament rather than requiring highly competitive players to develop a secondary skill in acting like they're playing while intentionally losing/drawing instead.

That said, I think that intentional draws ARE a bad thing for competition. This leads me to have a certain amount of sympathy for the Netrunner rules, since I prefer a world where intentional draws don't happen. Unfortunately, I don't know that I can stomach the cost of subjectivity required to enforce this sort of rule at a high level of competition.

In this one case, it's super-easy to judge. The players weren't trying to be sneaky, and weren't even trying to cheat the system, they were all above board because they didn't think they were doing anything wrong, so it's actually not a subjective judgment as to whether they violated the rules or not (even if I do think that this is an unfortunate result).

However, if two players did want to cheat, and did collaborate to draw an important match while making it look like a real game, how would you stop them? Hope that they're not good enough actors to fool the judges?
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Re: Plugged In - Albany, NY OR How I was almost DQ'd in the Finals.
anathomical wrote:
Saracenus wrote:
All joking aside. Neither is a better rule. Magic has its rules and Netrunner has its rules. Be aware and have fun.
I hate furthering the derailing of a thread about what sounds like a sweet tournament, but I think it's pretty easily arguable that Magic's rule is better AS A RULE. That's because, simply put, it's objectively enforceable. The Netrunner rule is one of those super-fuzzy subjective ones. After all, if two players collude to draw, it basically boils down to a competition between the acting ability of the players and the mind-reading ability of the judge/tournament organizer. It's generally considered to be better for a game if you simply allow people to draw/forfeit when it's beneficial within the structure of the tournament rather than requiring highly competitive players to develop a secondary skill in acting like they're playing while intentionally losing/drawing instead...However, if two players did want to cheat, and did collaborate to draw an important match while making it look like a real game, how would you stop them? Hope that they're not good enough actors to fool the judges?
As much as I agree with you that unenforceable rules are inherently bad, your argument is fallacious. You are not talking about good players developing their acting ability, you are talking about cheaters developing their acting ability.
 
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Re: Plugged In - Albany, NY OR How I was almost DQ'd in the Finals.
anathomical wrote:
However, if two players did want to cheat, and did collaborate to draw an important match while making it look like a real game, how would you stop them? Hope that they're not good enough actors to fool the judges?
More off topic, but I have to agree with your points. Magic is totally different game but they have over 15 years of tournament experience in very high competitive environment. So it makes sense about thinking MTG because the tournament rules are very polished and I am sure this rule would also be in MTG if there would be a good way to govern it.
 
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Re: Plugged In - Albany, NY OR How I was almost DQ'd in the Finals.
anathomical wrote:
Saracenus wrote:
All joking aside. Neither is a better rule. Magic has its rules and Netrunner has its rules. Be aware and have fun.
I hate furthering the derailing of a thread about what sounds like a sweet tournament, but I think it's pretty easily arguable that Magic's rule is better AS A RULE. That's because, simply put, it's objectively enforceable. The Netrunner rule is one of those super-fuzzy subjective ones. After all, if two players collude to draw, it basically boils down to a competition between the acting ability of the players and the mind-reading ability of the judge/tournament organizer. It's generally considered to be better for a game if you simply allow people to draw/forfeit when it's beneficial within the structure of the tournament rather than requiring highly competitive players to develop a secondary skill in acting like they're playing while intentionally losing/drawing instead.

That said, I think that intentional draws ARE a bad thing for competition. This leads me to have a certain amount of sympathy for the Netrunner rules, since I prefer a world where intentional draws don't happen. Unfortunately, I don't know that I can stomach the cost of subjectivity required to enforce this sort of rule at a high level of competition.

In this one case, it's super-easy to judge. The players weren't trying to be sneaky, and weren't even trying to cheat the system, they were all above board because they didn't think they were doing anything wrong, so it's actually not a subjective judgment as to whether they violated the rules or not (even if I do think that this is an unfortunate result).

However, if two players did want to cheat, and did collaborate to draw an important match while making it look like a real game, how would you stop them? Hope that they're not good enough actors to fool the judges?
I will agree that it is harder to enforce the no-collusion rules. And it might turn out that one day in the future this rule will be changed by FFG. Today is not that day.

Personally, I prefer that you have to play things out to the bitter end, that you have to play to win. I think that its is a better way to go as a goal of the game. The reality is that some of us will cheat the system because of what ever justifications they can manufacture.


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Re: Plugged In - Albany, NY OR How I was almost DQ'd in the Finals.
magic changed to allow intentional draws after years of competitive play showed that was the only sensible policy that was enforceable. maybe netrunner will reach the same logical conclusion someday.
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Re: Plugged In - Albany, NY OR How I was almost DQ'd in the Finals.
Saracenus wrote:
anathomical wrote:
Saracenus wrote:
All joking aside. Neither is a better rule. Magic has its rules and Netrunner has its rules. Be aware and have fun.
I hate furthering the derailing of a thread about what sounds like a sweet tournament, but I think it's pretty easily arguable that Magic's rule is better AS A RULE. That's because, simply put, it's objectively enforceable. The Netrunner rule is one of those super-fuzzy subjective ones. After all, if two players collude to draw, it basically boils down to a competition between the acting ability of the players and the mind-reading ability of the judge/tournament organizer. It's generally considered to be better for a game if you simply allow people to draw/forfeit when it's beneficial within the structure of the tournament rather than requiring highly competitive players to develop a secondary skill in acting like they're playing while intentionally losing/drawing instead.

That said, I think that intentional draws ARE a bad thing for competition. This leads me to have a certain amount of sympathy for the Netrunner rules, since I prefer a world where intentional draws don't happen. Unfortunately, I don't know that I can stomach the cost of subjectivity required to enforce this sort of rule at a high level of competition.

In this one case, it's super-easy to judge. The players weren't trying to be sneaky, and weren't even trying to cheat the system, they were all above board because they didn't think they were doing anything wrong, so it's actually not a subjective judgment as to whether they violated the rules or not (even if I do think that this is an unfortunate result).

However, if two players did want to cheat, and did collaborate to draw an important match while making it look like a real game, how would you stop them? Hope that they're not good enough actors to fool the judges?
I will agree that it is harder to enforce the no-collusion rules. And it might turn out that one day in the future this rule will be changed by FFG. Today is not that day.

Personally, I prefer that you have to play things out to the bitter end, that you have to play to win. I think that its is a better way to go as a goal of the game. The reality is that some of us will cheat the system because of what ever justifications they can manufacture.
From a philosophical perspective, I also like the idea of people playing it out to the bitter end. If nothing else, it reduces variance. By making people play more matches, you reduce the impact of lucky/unlucky draws, which should select for higher levels of skill.

I'm just... skeptical about that being practicable. And, on top of that, I'm pretty strongly against any rule that makes a player act against their best interest in winning. In my ideal world, tournament rules are designed such that everyone is always incentivized to win every game. That's just a tricky piece of design to pull off.

Actually, and I know this totally isn't the thread for it, but I wonder how people would feel if the situation was slightly different. What if the player in the lead was wrecking everyone and came into the last round with a five point lead, then just decided to forfeit the last round? That's still a first-place finish, and it's not collusion, but it also ends up being a form of king-making since it gives the leader's opponent four free points from what should have been their toughest match... Is such a forfeiture illegal under the current rules as-written? Should it be?
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Re: Plugged In - Albany, NY OR How I was almost DQ'd in the Finals.
I just want to say quickly, I am not accusing the OP of cheating. We all make mistakes.

Another player posted up in /r/netrunner (reddit.com) about how he brain damaged his Jackson Howard play at the Plugged In Tour when he pulled the three cards he wanted to put back into R&D and shuffled the rest of the Archive into instead by mistake... DOH! Forfeit.

I had to forfeit one of my games in our last local tourney when I accidentally put down one of my two agendas in HQ in my R&D upgrade spot (I was trying to play Bernice which was right next to it). The runner runs my HQ and instead of a 66% chance of hitting a 1 point agenda, he only had a 33% chance. He then runs R&D and I turn over Breaking News (DOH!). Since there was no way to walk back the error and it had affected the board state irreparably I had to forfeit.

We had a new player bring an illegal deck (3x ♦Director Haas' Pet Project) which will probably cause us to randomly audit decks in future tournaments.
 
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Bryan Blumklotz
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b a n j o wrote:
I asked Damon about forfeiting (my term is scooping) matches. He said that while forfeiting a match is legal, if the TO feels it was done with the sole intention of benefiting the other player's standings in the event, then it is illegal to forfeit the game.
Interesting, this is not obvious from the tournament rules at all.

b a n j o wrote:
The subjective nature of the overall rule, in my opinion, is likely going to come up again at future events. Think about the number of times you've made a sub-optimal move in a game you wanted to win. Now imagine if the TO, as a result of the sub-optimal move, accuses you of cheating, and DQs you. It's going to happen to someone.
I would be shocked if this ever comes up. Frankly, in our tournaments, we regularly have 15-18 people (Regionals was a high water mark of 26) and the idea that our TO can monitor individual matches unless called over by another player is ludicrous.

The most likely reason we call for a TO is to adjudicate a corner-case rule (even more likely when the tournament is close to a data pack release) or less likely a complaint about possible slow play (we haven't had this yet). The one time I have called over a TO to my table in five tournaments is to adjudicate a broken game state (we were able to fix it that time, unlike my own last tournament).

The biggest problem we have had to date is the change over to the new scoring system for Swiss rounds. That is more of a technical issue for the TO than problems with players.

The other issue is training up the player base on proper tournament rules and edict. The anti-scouting rule has been the hardest one to deal with because its everyone's inclination to watch the action (I suffer from this as well). We gently remind folks to move to another area of the store.

 
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