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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Does Freezing stacks ? rss

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Littlefinger Baelish
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Hello guys, I remember seeing an official saying that "shadow" doesn't stack, but what about Freezing ?
(Reminder on freezing, whenever a hero enter a square adjacent to a monster with freezing ability, he gets 1 fatigue token)
So if a hero enters a square adjacent to 2 monsters with freezing does he loose 1 or 2 fatigue ?

thanks !
 
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Darren Nakamura
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I would rule that Freezing does not stack. I don't know if we have an official ruling on it.
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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The actual text is:

Quote:
Freezing: Each time a hero enters a
space adjacent to this monster, that
hero suffers 1 {fatigue}.
Note that is says "this monster". I think that would mean it does stack, since if you entered a square that was adjacent to two different freezing monsters, then you have entered a square adjacent to this monster A, suffer 1 fatigue, and you also entered a square adjacent to that monster B, suffer 1 fatigue.

Seems kind of clear to me...

-shnar
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Sean Houston
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That's the exact same wording on Shadow, which has been ruled to not stack, so that's not a great argument. Personally I would have thought they should all stack, but apparently FFG didn't want that with Shadow, so who knows what they intended for Freezing (and Aura).
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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It was? I did a search in the FAQ for both Shadow and Freezing and I didn't see anything. Was this ruled in an off-the-cuff email that hasn't been put into anything official yet? (those are not RAW) It's not "exactly" the same wording. One is spending, the other is suffering, a subtle difference.

The same question could be applied to Aura, and if a hero walk next to 3 Hellhounds, it's really silly to think he only suffers one damage. I could maybe see how someone could interpret spending a surge can satisfy multiple Shadow monsters. I don't see how someone can say suffering a fatigue/wound can satisfy multiple Freezing/Aura monsters.

-shnar
 
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Littlefinger Baelish
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Allrighty off we go with a question to FFG then. I had asked for Freezing and Aura. Let you know what i receive.

Thanks !
 
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Darren Nakamura
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shnar wrote:
The same question could be applied to Aura, and if a hero walk next to 3 Hellhounds, it's really silly to think he only suffers one damage.
Why is that silly? I could imagine it both ways: either the Aura is a binary thing (there either is a damaging Aura in this space or there isn't) or there are levels to how damaging an Aura can be.

Given past rulings (specifically with Shadow), I would bet that the ruling on both Aura and Freezing will come back as not stacking.
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Well, 1st Ed precedent was that they did stack. Why would one creature burn you but the other not? Rules As Written is they do stack (I still want to know where it's written that Shadow doesn't stack).

-shnar
 
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Rafal Areinu
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Here you go: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/10617047#10617047

Answer by Adam Saddler, so RAI - shadow does not stack. Sure, RAW they would, but most of players around here apply answers from FFG e-mails to their games. Otherwise what would be the reason to ask FFG about anything in first place?
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Stephen Williams
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shnar wrote:
Well, 1st Ed precedent was that they did stack. Why would one creature burn you but the other not? Rules As Written is they do stack (I still want to know where it's written that Shadow doesn't stack).
It's in the unofficial FAQ. If you don't want to recognize that source because it's just a collection of email questions and answers rather than a published FAQ document, that's your right, of course. A lot of other people around here do seem to take those answers as official rulings, though.

Based on that source, Shadow and Command do not stack. The same source also says Aura does stack, FWIW. It doesn't mention Freezing, but I'm guessing it does stack, like Aura.

I think the main reason FFG ruled that Shadow doesn't stack is because surges are significantly harder to come by in 2E. Taking one wound (fatigue) is not as big a deal, so it's okay if they stack.
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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There are reasons 'unofficial' responses are guidelines at best. A) they're scattered all over the web in different forums, emails, etc. B) there are times they contradict the rules or even another similar question. C) They tend to be 'off the cuff', quick responses that have little regard to other aspects of the game.

When an 'official' response has been made (i.e the FAQ), the hope is that this has been a bit more vetted than an immediate response from an email query. Even if the original response was from the designer (Adam in this case, though with other games, it is often not the case), often times the response is made in a vacuum of other abilities in the game, and hasn't been properly balanced, tested, peer reviewed, etc. Once it goes into a FAQ, at the very least it's in one location that anyone can refer to.

In the context of Command, the ability itself specifically states "Each minion may only benefit from one monster with Command at a time." So there really wasn't a need for clarification. What Adam is suggesting with Shadow is that it was intended to have a similar text but just didn't. So, the FAQ should be updated to reflect this. There have been what, 3 FAQs now and it still hasn't been updated with this decision? That tells me that at one time Adam felt that way, but either it wasn't important enough or after further review decided it should be the other way (i.e. the way it's written) to have included it in a FAQ. Either way, when I have a question, I'm going to look in the Rules and the FAQ and if it's not there, make a decision and keep the game moving. I'm definitely not going to spend hours purusing BGG or FFG's forums...

And then back on topic, Freezing is much closer to Aura than Shadow, so if I were to make a ruling at my gaming table (and simply how the text is written on the bloody card), Freezing does stack.

-shnar
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Rafal Areinu
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While I sympathize with your point of view shnar... FAQ stands for frequently asked questions. Thing like "this should have other text" should be in errata. Sure, this is the same document in this game, but FAQ won't update for every question ever asked but only for most frequently asked ones.

And then we had what? 3 FAQ updates now and they still didn't completely clear out movement related quirks that people ask OVER AND OVER again.

I don't think anyone would disagree with you that those answers aren't official, and I don't think most people religiously follow them. Let's take Darren as an example - no more than week ago I saw him posting that he didn't like one answer and wouldn't follow it. But some of the answers just clarify things that are written in a bit ambiguous way, or just confirm something that already is written out, or RAW if you want to use this name.

Anyway, in the end how you play the game and which resources you wish to use is up to you. I've met people who didn't accept any FAQs or errata, until it was errata printed on the cards, added to next expansion. They had strong argument - following those things meant they had to constantly remember more and more exceptions, which felt silly.
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E.M. Proc
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shnar wrote:
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Well, was I wrong? And next time, don't misquote me

-shnar
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Darren Nakamura
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Honestly, I had missed that Aura does stack. My earlier ruling was going off of just knowing that it was ruled Shadow does not. Freezing is more similar to Aura than to Shadow, so now I expect the Aura ruling to come back as stacking (unless Justin also forgot that at some point Aura was ruled to stack and goes off of the Shadow ruling, which brings us right back to shnar's point that the questions sent into FFG aren't always perfect).
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Littlefinger Baelish
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Update. Got the response from Justin and both Aura and Freezing can stack.

Posted the response also in "FFG sez"
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/13657389#13657389
 
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