Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
61 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

BGG» Forums » Everything Else » Religion, Sex, and Politics

Subject: Boehner Willing to Refuse to Raise Debt Ceiling rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Chris Montgomery
United States
Joliet
Illinois
flag msg tools
Dear Geek: Please insert the wittiest comment you can think of in this text pop-up. Then times it by seven.
badge
The Coat of Arms of Clan Montgomery - Scotland. Yes, that's a woman with the head of a savage in her hand, and an anchor. No clue what it means, but it's cool.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Despite saying the opposite less than 48 hours ago, Boehner is now implying that he will allow the U.S. to default on its debts - apparently. Are we sure his name isn't John Capone instead of John Boehner? Shaking down the government to get what a minority of his party in the House wants.

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2013/10/06/2738351/boehner...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Boaty McBoatface
England
County of Essex
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ohh this is so priceless, the anti-Americans must just be pissing themselves with laughter.

So this compromise they would reengage upon?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J
United States
Lexington
Kentucky
flag msg tools
Avatar
Microbadge: Chemical EngineerMicrobadge: Coffee drinkerMicrobadge: Clojure programmerMicrobadge: Apple Cider drinkerMicrobadge: Control Systems Engineer
You can't believe what he's as anyway. He had agreed to pass a clean CR if the Democrats agreed to the Republican spending cuts and he reneged on that. His problem is that sometimes he makes statements without first checking with the Tea Party, and then has to walk them back.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Boaty McBoatface
England
County of Essex
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
What the Republicans need is a strong leader who can get things done.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
William Boykin
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
For BJ.....
Avatar
mb
Previously, I have refused to consider the 'Trillion Dollar Coin' option as a viable option to get out of the debt ceiling crisis. It smacks too much of political shenanigans, and it would send the wrong message to markets that the Federal Government and the Obama Administration doesn't take the debt seriously. I would prefer that the Administration and the GOP have a 'Come to Jesus' moment where the GOP offers some concessions on increasing taxes, while the Democrats offer serious concessions on spending. Something akin to the 3:1 deal offered previously- for every 3 dollars in reduced spending, 1 dollar would allowed in increased taxes.

However, if the GOP won't budge on the Continuing Resolution, there's no reason to expect them to make any concessions on the debt ceiling. Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if, in private negotiations with Boehner, the President informs him that if the GOP won't deal, the President will just use the Trillion Dollar coin and bypass Congress entirely.

If the GOP wants hardball, so be it.

Darilian
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J
United States
Lexington
Kentucky
flag msg tools
Avatar
Microbadge: Chemical EngineerMicrobadge: Coffee drinkerMicrobadge: Clojure programmerMicrobadge: Apple Cider drinkerMicrobadge: Control Systems Engineer
Treasury has previously said the uber coin was off the table, and the Administration has also said that they don't feel a 14th Amendment solution is legal either. But perhaps they might change their minds. When asked about it yesterday, The President would not state that he wouldn't use other methods.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
William Boykin
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
For BJ.....
Avatar
mb
Drew1365 wrote:
cmontgo2 wrote:
Despite saying the opposite less than 48 hours ago, Boehner is now implying that he will allow the U.S. to default on its debts - apparently.
Failure to raise the debt ceiling does not mean a default on our debts. Whoever is saying this (the President for example) is lying his ass off.
So you agree with Henry Aaron of the Brookings Institute that the President should just ignore the debt ceiling limits?

Quote:
If President Obama spends what the law orders him to spend and collects the taxes Congress has authorized him to collect, then he must borrow more than Congress has authorized him to borrow. If the debt ceiling is not raised, he will have to violate one of these constitutional imperatives. Which should he choose?

In 2011, when Congress last flirted with not raising the debt ceiling, lawyers disagreed. Some argued that the president must honor the debt ceiling, thereby violating budget laws. Others held that he must honor budget legislation. No one argued that he should unilaterally raise taxes. Professors Neil H. Buchanan and Michael C. Dorf, who parsed the arguments in the Columbia Law Review in 2012, concluded that all options were bad, but that disregarding the debt ceiling was least bad from a legal standpoint.

I agree. Lawyers tend to play down policy considerations as a basis for interpreting law. In this case, the consequences are so overwhelmingly on one side that they cannot be ignored by the president and should not be ignored by the courts. If the debt ceiling is not increased, the president should disregard it, and honor spending and tax legislation.
"Our Outlaw President?: Obama Should Ignore the Debt Ceiling", by Henry Aaron, New York Times Editorial 9/29/2013.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/30/opinion/obama-should-ignor...

I agree with Mr. Aaron that if Pres. Obama can't work out some deal with Mr. Boehner about the CR or the debt ceiling, Pres. Obama should just bull forward and ignore the debt ceiling limitations. Put it to the voters in 2014.

Darilian

5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Montgomery
United States
Joliet
Illinois
flag msg tools
Dear Geek: Please insert the wittiest comment you can think of in this text pop-up. Then times it by seven.
badge
The Coat of Arms of Clan Montgomery - Scotland. Yes, that's a woman with the head of a savage in her hand, and an anchor. No clue what it means, but it's cool.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Drew1365 wrote:
cmontgo2 wrote:
Despite saying the opposite less than 48 hours ago, Boehner is now implying that he will allow the U.S. to default on its debts - apparently.
Failure to raise the debt ceiling does not mean a default on our debts. Whoever is saying this (the President for example) is lying his ass off.
I'm saying it. And it's not a lie.

I realize the nuance, here - you're speaking of the debt service costs to investors who have purchased bonds. I know that we can pay our debt service with the income from our taxes, but after the debt service is paid, it swallows roughly half of our revenues, leaving us able to fund roughly half of what we want to fund.

I am speaking more broadly - not only to the *national debt". In talking about the debts to American citizens that the United States is legally obligated to pay by virtue of our laws. Debts the President is obligated to pay. Debts that will not be paid.

But I understand what you're trying to say.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Eig
United States
Huntington
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Drew1365 wrote:
cmontgo2 wrote:
Despite saying the opposite less than 48 hours ago, Boehner is now implying that he will allow the U.S. to default on its debts - apparently.
Failure to raise the debt ceiling does not mean a default on our debts. Whoever is saying this (the President for example) is lying his ass off.
Actually, it does.

On November 1st the US has a 25 billion dollar obligation to Social Security recipients. Its possible that the US may have cash on hand to pay it. If it did, then that would effectively drain the federal coffers.

On November 15th, the US has a 30 billion dollar debt interest payment. The US Treasury does not have money on hand to pay that and Social security, which will lead to default on that debt.

---

Keep in mind that the President is legally obligated to spend all money appropriated by Congress (see: The Impoundment Control Act of 1974, which ended Nixon's effective line item veto's on spending and the Supreme Court case, Clinton v. City of New York, which ruled that presidents can't withhold spending unless specifically authorized by Congress to do so).

The only way Obama can legally not spend money, is if a majority of Congress agrees he can't, and passes a bill doing so.

EDIT - apparently I didn't roll in other "entitlement" spending on Nov 1st - its closer to 65 Billion Dollars in total.

Also - there is a technical reason that the US can't offer discretionary cuts of spending - the software to authorize payments doesn't have a capability to do so. Even if legally authorized to exercise discretion, we can't - without doing everything by hand.
This article goes into more detail on why we can't wish our way out of our spending obligations thanks to this technical straitjacket:
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/2013/10/06/1658662/raise-your-han...
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorge Montero
United States
St Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
I'll take Manhattan in a garbage bag. With Latin written on it that says "It's hard to give a shit these days"
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Now what we need is an activist Federal Reserve. They could make a mockery of the debt ceiling problem in a wide variety of ways. Their official job is to keep the economy stable anyway, so with enough political shenanigans, making sure the government remains funded might be a simpler way to go than a QE tsunami that is large enough to cover for any expected government spending shortfalls.

If the Fed decided to run amok, all that congress could do is pass legislation. Good luck passing legislation.
6 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Eig
United States
Huntington
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
The Fed is also a major holder of US debt. If they agreed to shenanigans with the President, that could lead to interesting results.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
Microbadge: I don't use any card sleevesMicrobadge: I couldn't care less what color I play with!Microbadge: I rarely log my playsMicrobadge: Good games do not need expansions!Microbadge: I avoid Kickstarter
dtolman wrote:
The Fed is also a major holder of US debt. If they agreed to shenanigans with the President, that could lead to interesting results.
How exactly does the gov't owe itself money?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J
United States
Lexington
Kentucky
flag msg tools
Avatar
Microbadge: Chemical EngineerMicrobadge: Coffee drinkerMicrobadge: Clojure programmerMicrobadge: Apple Cider drinkerMicrobadge: Control Systems Engineer
whac3 wrote:
dtolman wrote:
The Fed is also a major holder of US debt. If they agreed to shenanigans with the President, that could lead to interesting results.
How exactly does the gov't owe itself money?
The Fed is not exactly the government. But to answer the question, the Fed has been buying up government debt (along with mortgage backed securities) with its Quantitative Easing program.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J
United States
Lexington
Kentucky
flag msg tools
Avatar
Microbadge: Chemical EngineerMicrobadge: Coffee drinkerMicrobadge: Clojure programmerMicrobadge: Apple Cider drinkerMicrobadge: Control Systems Engineer
Drew1365 wrote:
Failure to raise the debt ceiling does not mean a default on our debts. Whoever is saying this (the President for example) is lying his ass off.
You are correct in that the debt ceiling and default are not directly tied, but its not as simple as you make it out to be. We have actually been above the debt limit since May, but the Treasury has been using what it terms "extraordinary" measures to manage things. These measures will soon be exhausted and by Oct. 17 there will not be enough cash on hand to reliably pay the Government's bills. Missing a debt obligation would cause a default.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
whac3 wrote:
dtolman wrote:
The Fed is also a major holder of US debt. If they agreed to shenanigans with the President, that could lead to interesting results.
How exactly does the gov't owe itself money?
The US government doesn't issue its own money; it borrows it from the Fed, a collection of private banks, thereby paying interest on the usage of its own currency.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Eig
United States
Huntington
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Simon Mueller wrote:
whac3 wrote:
dtolman wrote:
The Fed is also a major holder of US debt. If they agreed to shenanigans with the President, that could lead to interesting results.
How exactly does the gov't owe itself money?
The US government doesn't issue its own money; it borrows it from the Fed, a collection of private banks, thereby paying interest on the usage of its own currency.
This. The Federal Reserve Bank is separate legal entity that runs independently from the US Government, though its officials are all appointed by the government.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
Microbadge: I don't use any card sleevesMicrobadge: I couldn't care less what color I play with!Microbadge: I rarely log my playsMicrobadge: Good games do not need expansions!Microbadge: I avoid Kickstarter
dtolman wrote:
Simon Mueller wrote:
whac3 wrote:
dtolman wrote:
The Fed is also a major holder of US debt. If they agreed to shenanigans with the President, that could lead to interesting results.
How exactly does the gov't owe itself money?
The US government doesn't issue its own money; it borrows it from the Fed, a collection of private banks, thereby paying interest on the usage of its own currency.
This. The Federal Reserve Bank is separate legal entity that runs independently from the US Government, though its officials are all appointed by the government.
What would be the economic consequences of cancelling the debt held by the Fed?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Eig
United States
Huntington
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
dtolman wrote:
Simon Mueller wrote:
whac3 wrote:
dtolman wrote:
The Fed is also a major holder of US debt. If they agreed to shenanigans with the President, that could lead to interesting results.
How exactly does the gov't owe itself money?
The US government doesn't issue its own money; it borrows it from the Fed, a collection of private banks, thereby paying interest on the usage of its own currency.
This. The Federal Reserve Bank is separate legal entity that runs independently from the US Government, though its officials are all appointed by the government.
What would be the economic consequences of cancelling the debt held by the Fed?
We'd save a lot of money in the long run on the interest, have trillions of debt freed up, and break a lot of political taboos.

Here's my favorite liberal economist (OK, economist), discussing Ron Paul's suggestion to do this a few years ago:
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/politics/91224/ron-paul-d...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
Microbadge: I don't use any card sleevesMicrobadge: I couldn't care less what color I play with!Microbadge: I rarely log my playsMicrobadge: Good games do not need expansions!Microbadge: I avoid Kickstarter
Even Ron Paul can make sense once in a while.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J
United States
Lexington
Kentucky
flag msg tools
Avatar
Microbadge: Chemical EngineerMicrobadge: Coffee drinkerMicrobadge: Clojure programmerMicrobadge: Apple Cider drinkerMicrobadge: Control Systems Engineer
whac3 wrote:
What would be the economic consequences of cancelling the debt held by the Fed?
It would result in inflation and then higher interest rates to combat the inflation.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
Microbadge: I don't use any card sleevesMicrobadge: I couldn't care less what color I play with!Microbadge: I rarely log my playsMicrobadge: Good games do not need expansions!Microbadge: I avoid Kickstarter
jmilum wrote:
whac3 wrote:
What would be the economic consequences of cancelling the debt held by the Fed?
It would result in inflation and then higher interest rates to combat the inflation.
Would the reduction of the principal of the debt be worth it in the long run?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J
United States
Lexington
Kentucky
flag msg tools
Avatar
Microbadge: Chemical EngineerMicrobadge: Coffee drinkerMicrobadge: Clojure programmerMicrobadge: Apple Cider drinkerMicrobadge: Control Systems Engineer
whac3 wrote:
jmilum wrote:
whac3 wrote:
What would be the economic consequences of cancelling the debt held by the Fed?
It would result in inflation and then higher interest rates to combat the inflation.
Would the reduction of the principal of the debt be worth it in the long run?
I don't think anyone knows, but it would remove one of the levers the fed has on combatting inflation. As an alternative, the Fed could just raise the reserve requirement which would result in a reduction in the supply of money. That also has repercussions though as it would increase the gap between interest a bank pays on deposits vs loans, which is in effect a tax. Republicans don't like taxes.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
Microbadge: I don't use any card sleevesMicrobadge: I couldn't care less what color I play with!Microbadge: I rarely log my playsMicrobadge: Good games do not need expansions!Microbadge: I avoid Kickstarter
Alternatively why not have all the Federal agencies' accountants meet and just do whatever it takes to balance the damn books and so reduce US by more than half?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J
United States
Lexington
Kentucky
flag msg tools
Avatar
Microbadge: Chemical EngineerMicrobadge: Coffee drinkerMicrobadge: Clojure programmerMicrobadge: Apple Cider drinkerMicrobadge: Control Systems Engineer
whac3 wrote:
Alternatively why not have all the Federal agencies' accountants meet and just do whatever it takes to balance the damn books and so reduce US by more than half?
We were "supposed" to have a Budget this year. After the Republicans complained for a long time that the Senate wouldn't pass a Budget and wanting to use "regular order", the Senate finally cam through. But instead of allowing "regular order", the Republicans in the Senate blocked it. They were planning ahead for this debt ceiling crises and were afraid that the reconciliation process would include a debt ceiling deal. Reconciliation only requires a majority, rather than a supermajority. They just could not give up their obstructionism.

We need a budget that is a compromise between the Republicans and the Democrats so that the Appropriation process can work as designed.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
whac3 wrote:
What would be the economic consequences of cancelling the debt held by the Fed?
I think it would lead to impoverishment of the middle class, which doesn't enjoy the same financial mobility as large scale investors, who will simply look for other markets less prone to inflation and therefore more secure for their investments. If your pension fund is devalued you're looking at elderly poverty. If your mortgage dries up you might lose your home. Etc. We can't expect wages to keep pace with inflation, so it would probably also affect poor people with no savings and individuals who are indebted themselves. Even more so when you consider that a lack of investments will have all sorts of negative economic consequences, like unemployment.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   |