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Subject: DOUBTS ABOUT ENGLISH RULES rss

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Freddy Dekker
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Seeing the lack of posts about this game I reckon nobody is going to care anyway, but..

I've been busy translating the rules into Dutch, the English rules that is as I can't claim to really speak French, allthough funnily enough I do manage to figure out what things mean.

Anyway, as I was going to have to print the rules anyway, I suddenly felt the urge to go one step further and translate them into Dutch.
Shouldn't be a problem.

But than reading the English rules I started to stumble upon stuff that didn't seem to make sense, like for example there is an example of an attack where two units are attacked and than according to the English rules do not respond by a reaction attack but instead with a gun that's somewhere else. Which basically can not happen as in this game guns can't fire over units.

Ahwell never mind as I got no response from the designer on this - to him the game is probably some folly of a distant past - I decided to act with logic and changed things so they would make sense.

So translation almost done I find that some helpfull images which are in the book, are not in the English rules so I now go a step further and am about to copy pictures so I can put them in the Dutch rules.

This makes me stumble upon further iffy stuff, that just doesn't look right and reading the English and comparing it to the French both rule sets seem to say different things.

So I'm now hoping that someone who owns the game and speaks both English and French, could go read both rule sets and tell me if they are the same.

I know I must appear arrogant now for claiming to know better and allthough I respect the attempt to translate the rules, very helpfull, I cannot help but think the translator was not an expert in the language as some parts and words have simply been skipped - probably couldn't figure it out - and I've had to translate from French to Dutch.

It can be very difficult to find the right word in your language that exactly says the same as in the Original language.
I've been struggling for days to find a good Dutch word for modifyer or facing and still am not sure that there isn't a better one than the one I found.
So as said I respect the translating efforts and realise it is not easy.

If anyone has the game, speaks both languages and feels bored enough to take a look, I would appreciate a 2nd opinion on them English rules, so I can be sure no mistakes, or misunderstandings have crept in.

p.s. if anyone is interested in the Dutch translation [as understood by me] I'll be happy to share.






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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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Paging Mr. Vasey?

I've had similar doubts. I played the game once and when coming upon things that didn't seem to make sense, I relied on a translation of Paris vaut bien une Messe! Les Guerres de Religion 1562-1598 to sort it out. This was some months ago, so I don't remember details.

I thought the game was OK. I am competent in MPBS and do like some of the streamlining in this system, but perhaps it is simplified too much. And the tactical situation is not as interesting as it could be either.
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Freddy Dekker
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To me it was a must have, as you do not often see battles from the 80 years war in games.

Would you agree the game is a good introduction into the musket&pike series?
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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I suppose it could be used as an introduction, but so much of the system has been removed, I think it would only serve as a taste test, but not so much for help in actually learning the rules.
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Freddy Dekker
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Thanks.

I would have hoped that, as an added bonus, it would have been.

I've got UNDER THE LILIE BANNERS and will admit I found the rules a bit overwhelming so I put learning that one off till later, as there are loads of other games demanding my attention.
 
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Freddy Dekker
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just checking the rules for the so manieth time, I stumbled upon something I'd missed.

Upto now I'd assumed that a tercio was represented by a double unit with the letter T.

Reading again I now understand that a tercio is represented by a double unit + a single unit of musketeers.

Allthough when later in the rules they than speak again of tercio there is no mention of the musketeers anymore.
At times it feels as if they make things more difficult that needs be.

Yeah I think tercios are definatly 2 units hence units baring the same name.
 
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Florent Coupeau
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In the French rules, at the end of 2.2:
Une unité de tercio est composée d’une unité double T (1 manga de piquiers et 1 manga d’arquebusiers) et d’une unité simple M (1 manga de mousquetaires) ayant le même nom.
A Tercio unit consists of a double-T unit (1 manga of pikemen and 1 manga of musketeers) and a single unit M (1 manga Musketeers) with the same name.

This has somehow disappeared from the English rules.
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Florent Coupeau
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I am sorry for the translation as I don't know who did them at Vae victis.

When I'll find some time, I'll have a look at it and try to proofread them.
 
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Freddy Dekker
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Oh truth be told I do enjoy the challence of trying to find out how things should work.

It obviously is not easy to write rules and stick them in a rule book in a way that is clear to people unfamiliar with the game.
And than to translate it in a way that doesn't lose anything in translation.

It just would help to have some confirmation that I've come to the right conclusion.

one thing I can not find on the map is the tidal marks.
there is a high tide scenario in which you move troops when th water comes in, some hex called X..something, but I can't find them on the map.

I was wondering, as the Spanish formation means that troops of the same name are of one formation, does the same count for the Dutch formation?
Haven't found it anywhere in the rules, so I guess not.

As soon as I find the time I'm going to try a practise game with the rules as translated and will no doubt find out if it works.

I hope I've made it clear that it was not my intention to critisise the Original translater.
I can imagine she was given the French rules and told to go translate this without actually having any knowledge of the game, which will make it even more difficult to translate the rules.

 
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Freddy Dekker
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lysimachus wrote:
In the French rules, at the end of 2.2:
Une unité de tercio est composée d’une unité double T (1 manga de piquiers et 1 manga d’arquebusiers) et d’une unité simple M (1 manga de mousquetaires) ayant le même nom.
A Tercio unit consists of a double-T unit (1 manga of pikemen and 1 manga of musketeers) and a single unit M (1 manga Musketeers) with the same name.

This has somehow disappeared from the English rules.
It has not really disappeared from the English rules, it is just in there in a way that it can be difficult to realise what it means.
{me translating it back from English into Dutch may also not have made things easier}

I think the main problem is the double unit.
Reading the rules I understood double unit as in twice the size of a single one rather than double also meaning two units.
The bit where it says a double unit is 50% pike & 50% arqeubus + a group of musketeers, didn't help.

It dawned on me when I read in the rules that a double unit attacks in two sections and I thought how can one counter attack in two?
Than it suddenly fell into place the whole thing with the mobile musketeers and the tercio..

 
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Florent Coupeau
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sagitar wrote:
one thing I can not find on the map is the tidal marks.
there is a high tide scenario in which you move troops when th water comes in, some hex called X..something, but I can't find them on the map.
The hexs XX01 are all the hexs that ends by 01. 0101,0201, 0301 and so on.

sagitar wrote:
I was wondering, as the Spanish formation means that troops of the same name are of one formation, does the same count for the Dutch formation?
Haven't found it anywhere in the rules, so I guess not.
Where did you see this?
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Freddy Dekker
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Ah now I see, the xx representing any number.
very clever...


In the rules under 2.2. it list the different units and what they exist of.

Spanish tercio, so many pike, so many harqubusier, so many musket and as we now know the pike and harq. make up the double block while there is a single unit of musketeers that also belongs to the tercio.

Now when describing the Dutch formation it say there are 50% pike and 50% musket, so that made me wonder if they too are suposed to belong to a single unit.

Seeing "Hottinga" on a pike counter and on a musket counter seemed to confirm that.
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