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Subject: Initial exploring phases rss

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Leo March
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Any race, when exploring unexplored spaces next to their "Starting sector hex", may turn 2 hexes and choose one, or discard both. Just as Descendants of Draco special exploration rule.

A simple solution to reduce "Bad Luck Factor" in the very early steps of the game.

Any thoughts about it?
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Radosław Michalak
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Define "Bad Luck Factor"
I often see player complaining about great hexes because there are ancients.
I would imagine players choosing crap because it's unprotected.
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Leo March
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Radziol wrote:
Define "Bad Luck Factor"
Discovering 3 or more ancient owned sectors in the first turn, and losing any posibility to use "Explore" actions for the next 2 or 3 turns.

One or two sectors with ancient´s ships around the starting sector hex is not a problem, but a future source of interesting resurces or technological advances. But 3 or more means the game is almost over for that player... It´s not nice to see a player with such a handicap from the very beginning.

 
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Radosław Michalak
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LeoMarch wrote:
Radziol wrote:
Define "Bad Luck Factor"
Discovering 3 or more ancient owned sectors in the first turn, and losing any posibility to use "Explore" actions for the next 2 or 3 turns.

One or two sectors with ancient´s ships around the starting sector hex is not a problem, but a future source of interesting resurces or technological advances. But 3 or more means the game is almost over for that player... It´s not nice to see a player with such a handicap from the very beginning.
So I disagree.
It's a tragedy if you don't think far ahead.
Some good moves and you get nice boost from better hexes.
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David Turczi
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LeoMarch wrote:
Radziol wrote:
Define "Bad Luck Factor"
Discovering 3 or more ancient owned sectors in the first turn, and losing any posibility to use "Explore" actions for the next 2 or 3 turns.

One or two sectors with ancient´s ships around the starting sector hex is not a problem, but a future source of interesting resurces or technological advances. But 3 or more means the game is almost over for that player... It´s not nice to see a player with such a handicap from the very beginning.

I disagree. There is no script on how to win Eclipse. You switch gears, scrap 2 cruisers together, upgrade, move, as soon as possible. You potentially get 3 techs quickly, early, plus you'll aready have a fleet! Go warmongering then!
 
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Harald Torvatn
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TDaver wrote:
LeoMarch wrote:
Radziol wrote:
Define "Bad Luck Factor"
Discovering 3 or more ancient owned sectors in the first turn, and losing any posibility to use "Explore" actions for the next 2 or 3 turns.

One or two sectors with ancient´s ships around the starting sector hex is not a problem, but a future source of interesting resurces or technological advances. But 3 or more means the game is almost over for that player... It´s not nice to see a player with such a handicap from the very beginning.

I disagree. There is no script on how to win Eclipse. You switch gears, scrap 2 cruisers together, upgrade, move, as soon as possible. You potentially get 3 techs quickly, early, plus you'll aready have a fleet! Go warmongering then!
Yes. But everybody eventually get hexes with ancients and exploration tiles. But those who find themselves blocked by such hexes first does not get do explore more until they have buildt those cruisers. When they have done that, thoe ones who found easier hexes have also run into ancients, but have a better economic base to build cruisers from.
 
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Leo March
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TDaver wrote:
LeoMarch wrote:
Radziol wrote:
Define "Bad Luck Factor"
Discovering 3 or more ancient owned sectors in the first turn, and losing any posibility to use "Explore" actions for the next 2 or 3 turns.

One or two sectors with ancient´s ships around the starting sector hex is not a problem, but a future source of interesting resurces or technological advances. But 3 or more means the game is almost over for that player... It´s not nice to see a player with such a handicap from the very beginning.

I disagree. There is no script on how to win Eclipse. You switch gears, scrap 2 cruisers together, upgrade, move, as soon as possible. You potentially get 3 techs quickly, early, plus you'll aready have a fleet! Go warmongering then!
It happens that if that player is not able to defeat the Ancient ship at the end of his fourth turn, he is absolutly out of the game.
 
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Radosław Michalak
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LeoMarch wrote:
TDaver wrote:
LeoMarch wrote:
Radziol wrote:
Define "Bad Luck Factor"
Discovering 3 or more ancient owned sectors in the first turn, and losing any posibility to use "Explore" actions for the next 2 or 3 turns.

One or two sectors with ancient´s ships around the starting sector hex is not a problem, but a future source of interesting resurces or technological advances. But 3 or more means the game is almost over for that player... It´s not nice to see a player with such a handicap from the very beginning.

I disagree. There is no script on how to win Eclipse. You switch gears, scrap 2 cruisers together, upgrade, move, as soon as possible. You potentially get 3 techs quickly, early, plus you'll aready have a fleet! Go warmongering then!
It happens that if that player is not able to defeat the Ancient ship at the end of his fourth turn, he is absolutly out of the game.
Sorry, but if you can't do this so long, then generally you deserve to lose that game.
Many unprotected hexes are weak and often only burden your economy (but many players take it because "hey, I have another hex!")
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Leo March
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Radziol wrote:
Sorry, but if you can't do this so long, then generally you deserve to lose that game.
If bad luck gives you no chance to colonize any planet in the first four turns, it´s not a problem with that unlucky player, it´s a bug of the game.

In 6-player games, the last player uses to have only two chances to explore in his first turn (I am talking about games with advanced players, not rookies) Sure you know why and don´t need wider explanation on that.

From second player to fifth one, they have a minimum of three options to explore, but it can become a maximun of three chances if some of them gets bad luck and only discovers Ancient´s Hexes.

Any advanced player blocked in his first turn, and playing on other advanced players, is out of the game.

Radziol wrote:
Many unprotected hexes are weak and often only burden your economy (but many players take it because "hey, I have another hex!")
A weak hex is much stronger than no hex at all. Even more important, it gives you a way to keep on exploring.
 
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Walter Malmendier
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I find another idea more useful that I've read here on the forums.
On deactivating one of his colony ship, the drawn sector tile may be discarded and another sector tile can be turned which has to be placed.

With this you have to make a decision.
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Leo March
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WalMal wrote:
I find another idea more useful that I've read here on the forums.
On deactivating one of his colony ship, the drawn sector tile may be discarded and another sector tile can be turned which has to be placed.

With this you have to make a decision.
No option to discard the second hex?
 
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Walter Malmendier
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Hmmh, did not try it with this discard option. Maybe this makes the decision to turn another sector to easy.
 
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Radosław Michalak
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How many games have you played?
LeoMarch wrote:
Radziol wrote:
Sorry, but if you can't do this so long, then generally you deserve to lose that game.
If bad luck gives you no chance to colonize any planet in the first four turns, it´s not a problem with that unlucky player, it´s a bug of the game.
Again: if you can't manage to destroy ancients so long, then you deserve to lose the whole game.
Not because you have bad luck, but because you played wrong.
Quote:
In 6-player games, the last player uses to have only two chances to explore in his first turn (I am talking about games with advanced players, not rookies) Sure you know why and don´t need wider explanation on that.

From second player to fifth one, they have a minimum of three options to explore, but it can become a maximun of three chances if some of them gets bad luck and only discovers Ancient´s Hexes.
You always have 4 chances to explore.
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Any advanced player blocked in his first turn, and playing on other advanced players, is out of the game.
Do not say something as general rule, when it's only what you think.
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Radziol wrote:
Many unprotected hexes are weak and often only burden your economy (but many players take it because "hey, I have another hex!")
A weak hex is much stronger than no hex at all. Even more important, it gives you a way to keep on exploring.
[/q]
Wrong. It always depends, but there are many hexes which are not worth influencing. The cost of controling such hex may be higher than any benefits.
You overestimate the exploration.
 
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Leo March
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WalMal wrote:
Hmmh, did not try it with this discard option. Maybe this makes the decision to turn another sector to easy.
It costs the player one colony ship, an adecuate price.

The main rules lets you discard the explored hex ending your turn.

That rule can only be used when exploring hexes next to starting hex... Not more than four times per player per game. And gives a nice solution to a real problem.

I´ll try the addition of facing down a colony ship next time.

Thanks.
 
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Silver Bowen
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LeoMarch wrote:
Radziol wrote:
Define "Bad Luck Factor"
Discovering 3 or more ancient owned sectors in the first turn, and losing any posibility to use "Explore" actions for the next 2 or 3 turns.

One or two sectors with ancient´s ships around the starting sector hex is not a problem, but a future source of interesting resurces or technological advances. But 3 or more means the game is almost over for that player... It´s not nice to see a player with such a handicap from the very beginning.

You do know you can discard a hex instead of placing it, right? It's a waste of an action and suboptimal, but is necessary at times. If a player chooses to place every hex instead of discarding some of them, they've made their own bed. Not bad luck, bad play.
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Leo March
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silverbowen wrote:
LeoMarch wrote:
Radziol wrote:
Define "Bad Luck Factor"
Discovering 3 or more ancient owned sectors in the first turn, and losing any posibility to use "Explore" actions for the next 2 or 3 turns.

One or two sectors with ancient´s ships around the starting sector hex is not a problem, but a future source of interesting resurces or technological advances. But 3 or more means the game is almost over for that player... It´s not nice to see a player with such a handicap from the very beginning.

You do know you can discard a hex instead of placing it, right? It's a waste of an action and suboptimal, but is necessary at times. If a player chooses to place every hex instead of discarding some of them, they've made their own bed. Not bad luck, bad play.
I agree.

The house-rule states: you may turn 2 hexes and choose one, or discard both. When exploring hexes next to your starting hex.

When playing 6-players games, the last player has only two unblocked wormholes to explore through, because his other two ones will be blocked by his competitors (one in the first round of turn one, the other in the second round of turn one). If that player does not place an hex (with of without Ancients) in his first round of turn one, he will only have ONE not blocked wormhole (normally the one facing the exterior ring) or he will see players one and five blocking his second and third wormholes.

With normal rules, if the sixth player discards his first hex in his first turn, and assuming that his competitors will play logically hard against the weakest player with every action, then the sixth one will only have one option to not get blocked in his second round of his first turn, through the only not blocked wormhole left (the one facing the third ring) At this point he MUST place whatever hex he turns up or will find himself rounded by competitors in the third round of his first turn... His game is over in the third round of the first turn... Because just TWO bad lucky explore actions.

It does not mind what he does in his next two turns, players one and five will ever be stronger than him and one of them will conquer his starting hex in turn 3.

Try it and you´ll discover how a 6-players game becomes a 5-players game in the first turn because of bad luck.
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Forrest & Ryan Driskel
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LeoMarch wrote:

When playing 6-players games, the last player has only two unblocked wormholes to explore through, because his other two ones will be blocked by his competitors (one in the first round of turn one, the other in the second round of turn one).
Are you sure you're setting up the game board correctly? From what I see, this is not true. All players hexes should be rotated in the same direction. You can only end up blocked on round two.

Hard to show without a pic, which im not going to do right now.
 
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Leo March
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Leo March
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P1, P5 and P6... Starting hexes
1 means exploration action in round 1 (turn 1)
2 means exploration action in round 2 (turn 1)
3 menas exploration action in round 3 (turn 1)...
 
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Forrest & Ryan Driskel
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LeoMarch wrote:
one in the first round of turn one
Well, your image doesn't show getting blocked in the first round of turn one, but rather twice on action 2.

I will grant your that "there is only so much time" even if it is unlikely that the other players will only EXP. However, your variant also makes it easier for P1 and P5 to get the hexes they need to block P6.
 
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Leo March
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In turn 1 there are basically two actions to do: Research and Explore.
If initial research tiles don´t let me pick up double hulls or plasma cannons, I don´t research, becouse P6 will be a much weaker enemy than an Ancient in the first two turns, then I go for him. The same happens with P5, any interesting research tile would have been piked up by P2 to P4 players.

IF (and only IF) P6 gets bad luck in his first exploration action... He is mostly out of game. So, he needs the second chance to explore an empty hex in sector I (50% of discovering Ancients)

Quote:
Well, your image doesn't show getting blocked in the first round of turn one, but rather twice on action 2.
Becouse I gave P6 better chances... See that initial setup...


It does not mind the setup... Bad luck kills P6 in turn 1, with the help of P1 and P5 of course.
 
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Radosław Michalak
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LeoMarch wrote:
This setup is wrong.

1. Why did P6 discarded his 1st hex? Especially when he saw that P1 and P5 are going to block him?



P1 have to draw hex which gives him access to III ring. Best if also with access to I.
3/11 in stack II have ancients.
4/11 gives only access to III.
4/11 gives access to both III and I.

P5 have chance 4/8 to draw ancients in I.
1/8 won't give him access to both I and II.
So only 3/8 for double access (which gives P6 3/8 * 4/11 = 3/22 (~13,6%) to be limited to only 2 hexes).

Later both P1 and P5 have quite big chance to draw hex with ancients = they spent action disc for exploration, but P6 still is able to take it 1st.
And that means that P1 and P5 ignored their other possibilities to explore, which may be used by P2-4.

And as mentioned, first of all your variant gives P1 and P5 much greater chance to draw appropriate hexes to begin this blocking action.
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Forrest & Ryan Driskel
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1.) Your image has P5 homeworld facing the wrong direction. It should be rotated one step clockwise, making this explore impossible.

2.) Your variant give P1 and P5 a better chance of drawing non-ancient sectors for their first explore. If its a 50% for P1 to draw an anicent (non variant), then with the variant P1 has a 71.4% chance of drawing a non-ancient. By the time it gets to P6 it will be mostly ancients left. This actually HURTS P6.
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Radosław Michalak
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Vanish wrote:
[b...then with the variant P1 has a 75% 71,4% chance of drawing a non-ancient.
 
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Forrest & Ryan Driskel
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Radziol wrote:
Vanish wrote:
[b...then with the variant P1 has a 75% 71,4% chance of drawing a non-ancient.
Damnit, that's what I get for not thinking about it ... you're right.
 
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