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Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Elder Mok's Hero Ability rss

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Darren Nakamura
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If another hero within 3 spaces of Elder Mok activates an ability that recovers 1 heart, but has no hearts on his hero sheet, does Elder Mok's ability still kick in? Similarly, if a hero within 3 spaces spends a surge to recover fatigue without having any fatigue on his hero sheet, does Elder Mok still recover the fatigue?

I know where I lean on this ruling, but I'd like some more opinions.
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Are you saying the hero within 3 spaces is at max health/fatigue and does something that would gain health/fatigue and thus not gain any health/fatigue? For example, a hero hasn't used any fatigue and on an attack spends a surge to 'recover a fatigue'? I would say Mok's ability does not work, since you cannot go over your max and thus you are recovering nothing.

-shnar
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Darren Nakamura
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shnar wrote:
Are you saying the hero within 3 spaces is at max health/fatigue and does something that would gain health/fatigue and thus not gain any health/fatigue? For example, a hero hasn't used any fatigue and on an attack spends a surge to 'recover a fatigue'?
Yes, that is what I'm saying.
 
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Till Husemann
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It says 'recovers'. If you didnt suffer hearts/fatigue, you cannot recover hearts/fatigue. Id say no, the ability wouldnt work.
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Littlefinger Baelish
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I would say no since the other hero doesnt effectvly recover any fatigue at all.
Now since you bring this nice fellow, how would you rule the use of staff of light with him ? Say you have 3heroes missing 1 hit point, you activate the staff to heal the 3 others, does mok recover 3 hit points (one per hero) or just one ?
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Littlefinger9 wrote:
I would say no since the other hero doesnt effectvly recover any fatigue at all.
Now since you bring this nice fellow, how would you rule the use of staff of light with him ? Say you have 3heroes missing 1 hit point, you activate the staff to heal the 3 others, does mok recover 3 hit points (one per hero) or just one ?
3 hit points. Mok's ability is whenever another Hero recovers, not whenever an ability grants health/fatigue. Since 3 different heroes recovered health, then Mok's ability would be activated 3 times.

-shnar
 
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Darren Nakamura
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Nope. That one has been asked and answered by FFG in the past. Elder Mok would only recover 1 in situations like that (or specifically 2 from the Staff of Light).

Re: "Adam and Justin Sez" thread - potentially official (not yet FAQ) answers to rules questions. READ FIRST POST for instructions, please.
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Yeeahhh, I'm starting to give these emailed responses less and less credence

-shnar
 
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M K
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Dexter345 wrote:
Nope. That one has been asked and answered by FFG in the past. Elder Mok would only recover 1 in situations like that.

Re: "Adam and Justin Sez" thread - potentially official (not yet FAQ) answers to rules questions. READ FIRST POST for instructions, please.
Shouldn't he receive 2pts? One from the staff and one from his ability?
 
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Darren Nakamura
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RagsMcKay wrote:
Dexter345 wrote:
Nope. That one has been asked and answered by FFG in the past. Elder Mok would only recover 1 in situations like that.

Re: "Adam and Justin Sez" thread - potentially official (not yet FAQ) answers to rules questions. READ FIRST POST for instructions, please.
Shouldn't he receive 2pts? One from the staff and one from his ability?
Yeah, sorry, I was generalizing to other situations in which multiple people recover hearts at the same time. The ruling is only 1 additional, so with the Staff of Light he would recover 2.

shnar wrote:
Yeeahhh, I'm starting to give these emailed responses less and less credence

-shnar
For this one, I totally see why Justin ruled the way he did. It goes against the rules as written, I'd say, but it seems like an effort toward balance. Elder Mok is already one of the more powerful Healers; allowing him to recover 4 hearts from the Staff of Light is just too good compared to all of the other choices.
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Dexter345 wrote:
shnar wrote:
Yeeahhh, I'm starting to give these emailed responses less and less credence

-shnar
For this one, I totally see why Justin ruled the way he did. It goes against the rules as written, I'd say, but it seems like an effort toward balance. Elder Mok is already one of the more powerful Healers; allowing him to recover 4 hearts from the Staff of Light is just too good compared to all of the other choices.
That's fine, if they want to errata Mok so he's not quite so powerful then they should. I imagine most of the heroes from the conversion kit were not well playtested (if at all). I guess I'm irked at how he answered it, making it seem like he's interpreting the RAW in a very strange way. They should just put this as an errata in the next FAQ release (and probably some of the other CK heroes need some erratas too).

-shnar
 
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Rafal Areinu
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I wouldn't mind extensive errata at all! For now I would let Mok recover 4HP with staff of light - after all it's not guaranteed heroes will even get it.

Going back to original question, I don't see any reason why he would recover health/fatigue in those situations. I'm not even sure hero is able to spend surge to recover fatigue when he is at full fatigue.
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JH
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I'd agree with that at least. If you have no wounds or fatigue, you can't recover them.
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Sean Houston
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So, out of curiosity, would most of you also rule that if a hero is at max stamina (4/4 for instance), and cannot technically recover any fatigue, that he/she cannot even spend a surge to recover a fatigue, since he/she has none to recover?
 
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Darren Nakamura
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I'd say you can still spend the Surge on recovering fatigue, it just wouldn't do anything. Same as how you can spend a Surge on applying a Condition even if you didn't deal any damage, but it just has no effect.

This could come into play with something like Uncontrolled Power, where the Overlord may spend a Surge on recovering fatigue even if the targeted hero has no fatigue to recover.
 
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JH
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Hm, Uncontrolled Power presents an interesting scenario. Being able to waste a surge on this as OL could be very useful. Question submitted.
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Jeff

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Dexter345 wrote:

For this one, I totally see why Justin ruled the way he did. It goes against the rules as written, I'd say, but it seems like an effort toward balance. Elder Mok is already one of the more powerful Healers; allowing him to recover 4 hearts from the Staff of Light is just too good compared to all of the other choices.
I actually didn't think it went against the rules as written because of the timing. For example, the overlord cards can't be used twice on the same target with the same trigger. In the case here, my thought is that all of those heroes recover health at the same time (and in response to the same trigger) so it would only get through once.

As for the original question, I think "recover heart" is equivalent to "regain heart", so if nothing is regained the requirement is not met.
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Darren Nakamura
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I suppose it could be argued either way. The key is that his Hero Ability says "each time." Does that mean "each instance" of a hero healing, in which case, Staff of Light would have up to three other instances (four with an Ally?). Or does it literally have to do with timing (the heroes all recover damage simultaneously, so that is 1 time)?

Since the wording can be interpreted in a couple of different ways, I would bet that the ruling came more from a balance standpoint than anything else. I don't know for certain, of course.
 
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Stephen Williams
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SeanLuc wrote:
So, out of curiosity, would most of you also rule that if a hero is at max stamina (4/4 for instance), and cannot technically recover any fatigue, that he/she cannot even spend a surge to recover a fatigue, since he/she has none to recover?
Yeah, he can spend the surge on that ability, it just doesn't do anything.
As OL, I have very little problem with heroes throwing away surges on useless effects.
 
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Craig Bocketti
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Dexter345 wrote:
I suppose it could be argued either way. The key is that his Hero Ability says "each time." Does that mean "each instance" of a hero healing, in which case, Staff of Light would have up to three other instances (four with an Ally?). Or does it literally have to do with timing (the heroes all recover damage simultaneously, so that is 1 time)?

Since the wording can be interpreted in a couple of different ways, I would bet that the ruling came more from a balance standpoint than anything else. I don't know for certain, of course.
Here is an email exchange from Justin and me from June that discusses how his ability should work. I understand this doesn't address your original question.

Craig wrote:
2)I think this has been asked before, but for clarity I will ask again.

Concerning Elder Mok and his ability. If Elder Mok uses prayer of healing while having Holy Power on two other heros and rolls a surge. Does he gain 1 heart and 1 surge? or two hearts and two surges.

His ability does read "...each time another hero"

Does "each time" mean per hero or per event that causes healing?

2a) Also does he get a heart when heros stand up and are revived?
Justin Kemppainen wrote:
Each time would give him 2 damage and 2 fatigue recovery, but the card should read "once per turn" for each of his recovery abilities.

2a) Yes, his hero ability does trigger when a hero stands up or is revived.
Craig wrote:
So then really if he used prayer of healing with holy power the intent is that he would only recover 1 damage and 1 fatigue even if two heros are affected?
Justin Kemppainen wrote:
Yes. The larger problem with Elder Mok is the Spiritspeaker combination that, I don't perfectly recall offhand, would give him something like a minimum of 5 damage recovery and 4 fatigue recovery.

It's still once per turn that he can receive each benefit, which is still extremely powerful.


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Charles Burke
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Based on that, they need to errata him to add:

You may only recover up to 1 and 1 per turn.

 
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Jeff

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Dexter345 wrote:
I suppose it could be argued either way. The key is that his Hero Ability says "each time." Does that mean "each instance" of a hero healing, in which case, Staff of Light would have up to three other instances (four with an Ally?). Or does it literally have to do with timing (the heroes all recover damage simultaneously, so that is 1 time)?

Since the wording can be interpreted in a couple of different ways, I would bet that the ruling came more from a balance standpoint than anything else. I don't know for certain, of course.
One reason why I thought it was literal timing:

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/13070359#13070359
 
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Bob Bob
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Here is an exchange I had with Justin on October 4th:

Hey Cursain,

Since it says "each time" he would actually recover 4 and 4, which is perhaps just a little too good. More than likely, this is something that will be addressed soon™.

Thanks,
Justin Kemppainen
Creative Content Developer
Fantasy Flight Games
jkemppainen@fantasyflightgames.com




On Oct 4, 2013, at 4:04 PM, wrote:


Message from:
Wade Bergman


E-mail:
xxxxxxxxxxxxx@hotmail.com


Rule Question:
Good afternoon FFG.

I have a question concerning Elder Mok's Hero Ability.

Please see my example:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/eb2lmaonig2mebc/Elder%20Mok%20%2B%...

If Elder Mok used his first action by using the staff of light's "Each hero within 3 spaces of you recovers 1 heart and 1 fatigue", would he recover 2 heart + 2 fatigue or 4 heart + 4 fatigue?

From what I understand, the staff would heal him 1 heart and 1 fatigue + 1 heart + 1 fatigue for each hero, since all of them are within 3 spaces.

OR would he only recover 2 heart + 2 fatigue since his hero ability triggers off any hero within three spaces recovering a heart or fatigue + the Staff of Light affecting him?

Even with my latter interpretation, he can still recover 4 hearts + 4 fatigue a turn by simply using the staff twice. That's pretty darn good

Thanks for responding
-Cursain

 
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JH
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Can a hero (or overlord, via Uncontrolled Power) spend a surge to recover fatigue if there are no fatigue tokens on his card? Or can one only spend a surge in this way if there is fatigue to recover?

Quote:
The surge would be able to be spent regardless of whether or not the hero had suffered any fatigue.

Thanks,
Justin Kemppainen
Creative Content Developer
Fantasy Flight Games]
Unless I'm mistaken, this means an overlord should only rarely have to do anything beneficial for a hero's attack using Uncontrolled Power, since after any range-adding surges are spent they'll always be able to force fatigue recovery (even if there's none to recover), then force suffering a fatigue. Increases/clarifies utility of Uncontrolled Power IMO — I've been playing it as if there had to be a fatigue token present in order to recover one.
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Tihomir Ivanov
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Greetings all mighty heroes arrrh and badass overlords devil

Justin Kemppainen wrote:

2a) Yes, his hero ability does trigger when a hero stands up or is revived.
Ok this is clear to me. But my question is does Mok's ability triggers when he is knocked out?

Thanks in advance!
 
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