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Subject: Village +2 action rss

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Xiong ie
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Just wondering, it's possible to constantly chain village for unlimited actions right? This sounds ridiculous, but there's this one game that we actually chained actions and draw that we drained the deck in one turn.. Is it wrong? If its right, then the gamer ethical way is to not do shitty stuff like that right?
 
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Ben Bateson
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xiongie wrote:
it's possible to constantly chain village for unlimited actions right?
Technically, no. It's possible to chain Village for 10 extra actions, if you have bought and played every Village on the layout.

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This sounds ridiculous, but there's this one game that we actually chained actions and draw that we drained the deck in one turn.
Drawing your whole deck is not unusual, and there are several strategies that involve doing precisely that.

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Is it wrong?


No

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If its right, then the gamer ethical way is to not do shitty stuff like that right?
NO!!!!! HELL NO!

Perhaps if you're playing with your granny. But, otherwise...HELL NO!
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Andy Mills
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xiongie wrote:
Just wondering, it's possible to constantly chain village for unlimited actions right? This sounds ridiculous, but there's this one game that we actually chained actions and draw that we drained the deck in one turn.. Is it wrong? If its right, then the gamer ethical way is to not do shitty stuff like that right?
How many victory points did playing all those Villages get you?
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Richard Morris
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xiongie wrote:
Just wondering, it's possible to constantly chain village for unlimited actions right? This sounds ridiculous, but there's this one game that we actually chained actions and draw that we drained the deck in one turn.. Is it wrong? If its right, then the gamer ethical way is to not do shitty stuff like that right?
I suspect that you may have got a rule wrong, if I understand you correctly. But I may not have done so - Ben seems to have not read it the same way that I did.

So, yes, you can keep chaining villages and get lots of actions. But if all you draw with those actions is another village, then you have achieved pretty much nothing. Let's say that you have a card with 4 coppers and a village. Play the village, get two actions (2 in total now), draw another village. Repeat. At the end of all that you have 10 actions (I think - can't be bothered to work it out) and still just 4 coppers. If the card you draw with the 10th village is an Estate, then you end your action phase with 10 spare actions, but the same amount of money to spend as if your hand had been 4 coppers and an estate to start with. So you achieved absolutely nothing. The 'strategy' is sometimes referred to as 'the village idiot' strategy.

I suspect your casual "drained the deck in one turn" may suggest that you are doing something wrong, but I'm not sure what that might be.
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Steve L

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In addition to what others have said, note that the Village doesn't go into your discard immediately after being played. The Village only goes into your discard at the end of your turn. I suspect you've been putting it into the discard immediately after it's been played.

If you had enough Villages and actions that let you draw cards, you could draw your deck in one turn. Ideally your opponents (or the game) will try to prevent you from doing that in one of a couple of ways:

1) Buying up the cards that make up your combo to use themselves
2) The combo cards will take up enough room in your deck that you won't have enough space for money to take advantage of having drawn your deck
3) Eventually your deck will be filled with victory point cards that you draw instead of Villages and card drawing actions, and your combo stops partway through your deck
4) Your opponents rush to end the game by focusing on emptying three piles (in your example, since you will have bought lots of Villages, that will probably be one of the empty piles)
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Xiong ie
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I think we might have. When we play cards, and resolve the actions, they will stay in play until clean up phase, right?

I don't remember exactly the hands, but it was a combination of village - Cellar - laboratory - woodcutter. So it would be village, village, laboratory or cellar to drain out cards and redraw hand for useful cards, and keep rinsing until there's enough useful cards like gold or woodcutter, and play it all down for much gold and buys. It happened like twice I think.

Here's where I think we might have gone wrong, discarding cards that were resolved (village) and thus when the deck runs out, reshuffling it and putting it back in again and using it again.

Is this right?
 
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Xiong ie
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Ah.. There. I suspect as much! Thanks for the clarifications! I knew something was wrong when the chained got too long. And yea, there are many ways to counter that indeed...
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Ben Bateson
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xiongie wrote:


Here's where I think we might have gone wrong, discarding cards that were resolved (village) and thus when the deck runs out, reshuffling it and putting it back in again and using it again.

Is this right?
Yes, that's right. A common beginners' error. Don't play anything into your discard pile. Let everything pile up in front of you and discard it only at the end of your turn.
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Xiong ie
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Except for actions that tells you to discard, like cellar right?
 
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David Goldfarb
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Right. But cards that make you discard, make you discard from your hand. There are no game effects that affect cards which are in play. So even if you've constructed the massive drawing engine of the world, eventually your whole deck will end up in play or in your hand, and you will run out of cards to play. The game is deliberately designed to avoid infinite loops.
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Jeff Wolfe
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David Goldfarb wrote:
There are no game effects that affect cards which are in play.
While your larger point is valid, this statement is not actually true. It is possible to play the same card twice on the same turn. For example:

Play Mining Village - trash for +2 coins
Play Graverobber - gain Mining Village from trash and put it on top of your deck
Play Great Hall - draw Mining Village
Play Mining Village again
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Mark Judd
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jeffwolfe wrote:
David Goldfarb wrote:
There are no game effects that affect cards which are in play.
While your larger point is valid, this statement is not actually true. It is possible to play the same card twice on the same turn. For example:

Play Mining Village - trash for +2 coins
Play Graverobber - gain Mining Village from trash and put it on top of your deck
Play Great Hall - draw Mining Village
Play Mining Village again
Also, things such as buying a Mint will affect the cards in play (trashing all the treasures in play)
 
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David Goldfarb
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jeffwolfe wrote:
David Goldfarb wrote:
There are no game effects that affect cards which are in play.
While your larger point is valid, this statement is not actually true. It is possible to play the same card twice on the same turn. For example:

Play Mining Village - trash for +2 coins
Play Graverobber - gain Mining Village from trash and put it on top of your deck
Play Great Hall - draw Mining Village
Play Mining Village again
This is still not something which affects cards in play, since the Mining Village was in the Trash rather than in play. Beaveman is correct about Treasure cards, and I should have said 'Action cards that are in play'. And of course none of these effects are able to create infinite loops.
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Andy Mills
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Ah, good old Dominion Rules forums - this thread is going through the same phases as most of the others:

1. New player question.
2. Answer to the question.
3. Strategic considerations involving the question.
4. Check to make sure OP is getting other rules right.
5. Confirmation from OP that they were not, in fact, getting rules right.
6. Statement of generally applicable principle.
7. Edge case contradicting said principle.
8. Edge case contradicting said principle.
9. Edge case contradicting said principle.
10. Edge case contradicting said principle.
11. Edge case contradicting said principle.
12. Edge case contradicting said principle.
13. Edge case contradicting said principle.
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Matt N
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xiongie wrote:
Is it wrong? If its right, then the gamer ethical way is to not do shitty stuff like that right?
Play to win in a given game. If people hate a given strategy, they should figure out how to counter it or steal it (since the cards are available to everyone). As a vague hint, your strategy is actually very easy to beat.

Incidentally, if you always beat your friends with a given strategy, it shows that they aren't playing well. At the very least, they should be able to adapt and probably improve whatever strategy "always wins". Better yet, they should be able to take the cards that seem very situational and build annihilating strategies with them. You're still scratching the surface of the game.
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Stunna wrote:
xiongie wrote:
Is it wrong? If its right, then the gamer ethical way is to not do shitty stuff like that right?
Play to win in a given game. If people hate a given strategy, they should figure out how to counter it or steal it (since the cards are available to everyone). As a vague hint, your strategy is actually very easy to beat.

Incidentally, if you always beat your friends with a given strategy, it shows that they aren't playing well. At the very least, they should be able to adapt and probably improve whatever strategy "always wins". Better yet, they should be able to take the cards that seem very situational and build annihilating strategies with them. You're still scratching the surface of the game.
there's a potential underlying issue that they may simply not like Dominion. [Pause for gasps]. They see some strategies, but they simply don't like it.
 
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Jeff Wolfe
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David Goldfarb wrote:
jeffwolfe wrote:
David Goldfarb wrote:
There are no game effects that affect cards which are in play.
While your larger point is valid, this statement is not actually true. It is possible to play the same card twice on the same turn. For example:

Play Mining Village - trash for +2 coins
Play Graverobber - gain Mining Village from trash and put it on top of your deck
Play Great Hall - draw Mining Village
Play Mining Village again
This is still not something which affects cards in play, since the Mining Village was in the Trash rather than in play. Beaveman is correct about Treasure cards, and I should have said 'Action cards that are in play'. And of course none of these effects are able to create infinite loops.
Mining Village is in play when it trashes itself. Similarly, Procession trashes an Action card after it has you play it twice. There's also Walled Village, which can put itself on top of your deck from in play, albeit during the Clean-up phase.

I think Donald succeeded at avoiding infinite loops, and he even eliminated some of the wackier non-infinite loops (Goons notwithstanding), but I still don't think it's accurate to say that there are no effects that affect (action) cards in play.
 
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manydills wrote:
Ah, good old Dominion Rules forums - this thread is going through the same phases as most of the others:

1. New player question.
2. Answer to the question.
3. Strategic considerations involving the question.
4. Check to make sure OP is getting other rules right.
5. Confirmation from OP that they were not, in fact, getting rules right.
6. Statement of generally applicable principle.
7. Edge case contradicting said principle.
8. Edge case contradicting said principle.
9. Edge case contradicting said principle.
10. Edge case contradicting said principle.
11. Edge case contradicting said principle.
12. Edge case contradicting said principle.
13. Edge case contradicting said principle.
optionally, point out DominonStrategy.com articles and metrics. That leads to Isotropic recounts of specific strategies and how individual cards fare in the simulator.
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Mark Judd
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ackmondual wrote:
manydills wrote:
Ah, good old Dominion Rules forums - this thread is going through the same phases as most of the others:

1. New player question.
2. Answer to the question.
3. Strategic considerations involving the question.
4. Check to make sure OP is getting other rules right.
5. Confirmation from OP that they were not, in fact, getting rules right.
6. Statement of generally applicable principle.
7. Edge case contradicting said principle.
8. Edge case contradicting said principle.
9. Edge case contradicting said principle.
10. Edge case contradicting said principle.
11. Edge case contradicting said principle.
12. Edge case contradicting said principle.
13. Edge case contradicting said principle.
optionally, point out DominonStrategy.com articles and metrics. That leads to Isotropic recounts of specific strategies and how individual cards fare in the simulator.
Followed by several posts praising Isotropic and bashing Goko
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Kevin C.
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Quote:
there's a potential underlying issue that they may simply not like Dominion. [Pause for gasps]. They see some strategies, but they simply don't like it.
That's shouldn't "underlying" at all...they just say, "Hey, we don't like this game...let's move on to something else" or something like that.

I don't see this as something requiring much guesswork. Suboptimal play due to groupthink is one thing...suboptimal play due to not liking a game is something else.

Just stop playing the game if you don't like it.

Continuing to play poorly because you don't like the game would be quite odd, to my mind.

I really suck at Kingsburg, but I love it so I play it.

I suck at Carc because I don't really like it (read: I don't have the motivation to try and get good at it), so I don't play it anymore.

Kevin
 
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manydills wrote:
Ah, good old Dominion Rules forums - this thread is going through the same phases as most of the others:

1. New player question.
2. Answer to the question.
3. Strategic considerations involving the question.
4. Check to make sure OP is getting other rules right.
5. Confirmation from OP that they were not, in fact, getting rules right.
6. Statement of generally applicable principle.
7. Edge case contradicting said principle.
8. Edge case contradicting said principle.
9. Edge case contradicting said principle.
10. Edge case contradicting said principle.
11. Edge case contradicting said principle.
12. Edge case contradicting said principle.
13. Edge case contradicting said principle.
And then there are often meta-phases:

n(a). Someone resurrects the thread.
n (b). Variations on phases 2. - 7. by people who don't notice that the thread is three years old


I just got the game for Christmas, myself, so I'm enjoying reading the edge cases contradicting the principles...
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