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Star Trek: Attack Wing» Forums » Variants

Subject: Adding the Enterprise C rss

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Jonathan Bruce
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Since the Ambassador class is, best case, months and months away, I’ve decided she must be added by the community. The model will be a micro machines recycle but I need help with the ship stats and crew.

Here is what we have so far:

USS Enterprise NCC 1701-C



















Thanks Stephan
















Input is very much appreciated
 
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James Boyd
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Thank you, it's my favorite Next Gen episode.
 
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Stephen Thorpe
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OOOhh! Definitely one of my favourites as well.

For ship stats it has to lie somewhere between the Constitution and the Galaxy or the Excelsior and the Galaxy when that model becomes available.

Crew has to include Tasha Yar (ability becomes available once ship is damaged?).

Other than that it looks OK though I'd give the Last stand a bit more in the way of restrictions i.e. Only get it if you survive attack, auxiliary power token if you maneuver and/or only green maneuvers for the extra one.

Very tempted to draft something up though.
 
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I proposed some stats and a maneuver dial for an Ambassador class in my Fed Custom ship thread.
 
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Jonathan Bruce
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SteRT wrote:
OOOhh! Definitely one of my favourites as well.

For ship stats it has to lie somewhere between the Constitution and the Galaxy or the Excelsior and the Galaxy when that model becomes available.

Crew has to include Tasha Yar (ability becomes available once ship is damaged?).

Other than that it looks OK though I'd give the Last stand a bit more in the way of restrictions i.e. Only get it if you survive attack, auxiliary power token if you maneuver and/or only green maneuvers for the extra one.

Very tempted to draft something up though.
Hadn't thought about Tasha, good idea. Perhaps "Advanced Knowledge: As an action can repair one hull damage" or "Advanced Tactics: convert all hits to critical hits"

I agree that you have to survive the attack for "Last Stand" and adding an Auxiliary power token after use.

If you write something up please share it.

Also, I remember reading the Ambassador class was designed with deep space exploration in mind and that it was much more maneuverable than its Romulus counter parts of the time. Perhaps we can do something with that?
 
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Craig Pappystein
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Re Tasha Yar:

Upgrade type: Crew
Cost: 5 Pts
Faction: Federation
Ability: After the ship Tasha Yar is a crew member of has taken at-least one hit to the hull, Disable Tasha Yar TWICE to convert all rolled critical hits to regular hits, before any modifiers are applied to the dice roll. Tasha Yar cost 2 additional Squadron points if used on any ship other than an Ambassador Class ship.


And the FAQ explanation of the above. 1) your ship must have at-least one damage card assigned to it (be it regular or Critical) 2) You must put TWO disabled tokens on Tasha Yar to use her ability. This lowers the usefulness by not allowing you to use this ability every turn. 3)

Any other ability that would create Critical hits off of Dice roles other than critical hits are still applied as normal (they are not canceled.) Thus Khan's Battle-station ability or many of the weapon abilities would get through with criticals as normal.

Now that the hard part is out of the way the only concern I have with the stats is the overpowered attack (remember the Ambassadors are primary explore ships (better sensors, worse weapons than say a Galaxy) I think you should flip one attack die into the Evade die pool instead. This would highlight the higher maneuverability of the Ambassador class as a whole and still leave them capable of going toe to toe with newer ships.

But aside from liking many of the time travel episodes I won't call myself an expert.
 
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The trouble with making the Ambassador's attack weaker is that then it's the same as a Constitution, which doesn't make sense. Furthermore that leaves no room for other ships like the Excelsior which also should clearly outgun the Constitution.

I made the Ambassador weaker offensively than the Galaxy by limiting it's front firing arc to 90', though I gave it the Galaxy's 360 ability because it has phaser strips.

I like the last stand ability, but I think it should be more dramatic, like cheat death rather than counter attack. Something like, whenever you receive one or more hull hits, you can make a free attack, even if destroyed (otherwise it will always be the first focus fire target).

Also not sure it should go with the ship - I'd make it a Captain Ability, or even a Talent.
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Jonathan Bruce
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I don't know how accurate this site is, but they claim the Ambassador class had the precursor to the Defiant's armor plating. Perhaps add a hull point?

http://techspecs.acalltoduty.com/ambassador.html
 
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If you make it stronger hull it's as strong / as massive as a Galaxy class... not sure how I'd weigh the fuzzyness of backstories versus the fact that there should be a clear lineage of improvement in each generation of Enterprise.
 
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Jonathan Bruce
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adorablerocket wrote:
If you make it stronger hull it's as strong / as massive as a Galaxy class... not sure how I'd weigh the fuzzyness of backstories versus the fact that there should be a clear lineage of improvement in each generation of Enterprise.
In between the original Enterprise and the Enterprise D we have the A, B and C. I don't know there is enough room for a clear lineage.
 
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James Boyd
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DonMegel wrote:
adorablerocket wrote:
If you make it stronger hull it's as strong / as massive as a Galaxy class... not sure how I'd weigh the fuzzyness of backstories versus the fact that there should be a clear lineage of improvement in each generation of Enterprise.
In between the original Enterprise and the Enterprise D we have the A, B and C. I don't know there is enough room for a clear lineage.
Good point. Maybe there's not an actual difference stat wise, but each model looks different and has a different special ability for the named ship? Personally I'm a purist and don't care for mixing crew members/races, etc. Just having the Enterprise C (with her special ability) and her crew does it for me.
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Prince of Moskova wrote:
DonMegel wrote:
adorablerocket wrote:
If you make it stronger hull it's as strong / as massive as a Galaxy class... not sure how I'd weigh the fuzzyness of backstories versus the fact that there should be a clear lineage of improvement in each generation of Enterprise.
In between the original Enterprise and the Enterprise D we have the A, B and C. I don't know there is enough room for a clear lineage.
Good point. Maybe there's not an actual difference stat wise, but each model looks different and has a different special ability for the named ship? Personally I'm a purist and don't care for mixing crew members/races, etc. Just having the Enterprise C (with her special ability) and her crew does it for me.
Uhhh... that's my point. It's tight, however not impossible. I have one proposal here:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1042380/custom-federation-sh...

If you've got another proposal for how you'd do it and boost the Ambassador's hull as you suggest, I'd love to compare and contrast.
 
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Jonathan Bruce
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I think we should expand on what Tasha said, the Enterprise C was "much more maneuverable than her Romulan counter parts" Lets give it a red come about on the dial.

Also, a tech upgrade:"Early Ablative Armor- May turn 1 critical hit into normal hit each round"

I dont think we can really increase the agility, or hull, what with the Enterprise D being our ceiling, but, we can give a great deal of flavor to each ship with the tech, crew and "Named ship" bonus.

I updated the original post.

BTW, how can we make a new dial? Anyone have PSP files for the crew and tech cards?
 
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Jonathan Bruce
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No ideas on the PSP files?

Any thoughts on the "Hole in Time" card?
 
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Stephen Thorpe
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I still can't see the Enterprise C being more manoeuvrable than the current D'deridex or being more manoeuvrable than the Galaxy.

Remember when Tasha was quoting the manoeuvrability of the ships for combat she was referring to an older warbird than the current D'deridex so we can't assume that it is more manoeuvrable than the ships in the game i.e. Dominion War era Warbirds.
 
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Jonathan Bruce
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SteRT wrote:
I still can't see the Enterprise C being more manoeuvrable than the current D'deridex or being more manoeuvrable than the Galaxy.

Remember when Tasha was quoting the manoeuvrability of the ships for combat she was referring to an older warbird than the current D'deridex so we can't assume that it is more manoeuvrable than the ships in the game i.e. Dominion War era Warbirds.
But the C is smaller than the D, surly it could perform tighter maneuvers. I think a 4 come about is reasonable

EDIT: This is what I came up with based on Steve's ship template. I thought perhaps a 4 come about might be better than a 3 come about so I backed off a bit. What are your thoughts?



You have to remember that the D'deridex was twice the size of the Enterprise D where as the Enterprise C was somewhere in between the B and D. I also think, due to its role as a deep space vessel, it is made of sterner stuff and could withstand more intense maneuvers.

I also recall it being referred to as the "test bed" for technologies that would later end up in the Enterprise D. This gave me another idea for a card.

Test Bed: May install tech upgrades from any faction without penalty.
 
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Jonathan Bruce
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Alright, here is my card for the Enterprise C. I used Stephen's template.

EDIT: Image removed

I upped the hull value to 5 more because the 1701 and 1701 A are a 4 and the Enterprise C would be more durable. I know this is equal to the Enterprise D but remember, it is said that the Ambassador Class is built for long, deep space journeys. I don't think it unreasonable to assume she would have a more solid build.

I also did not give it the 360 degree firing arc, instead a 180 degree arc with standard rear arc. This is to illustrate the age of the vessel compared to the Enterprise D.

I also gave her a 4 Come About which is a rather long maneuver so I think it evens out.

Thoughts?
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Keith McCallig
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Isn't it too cheap? Ships usually cost 2 points per attribute point so it should be 28.

Personally I think its too good - It has the same base attributes as the Enterprise D (Galaxy Class) but has a better manoeuvre dial and a much better fire arc.

I think maybe it should loose a few points - perhaps one off Firepower and one off shields - with another off the shields for the base Ambassador class.

For 'Test Bed', I don't remember the ship actually using tech from different races - maybe just give it -1 point bonus on any Federation tech or weapon upgrades, or -2 on one Federation upgrade?

Just my 2 cents,
Keith Mc
 
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Jonathan Bruce
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After much thought I have changed the stats somewhat. I think the hull should remain at 5 as well as the attack value as the ship is closer to the Enterprise D than the Enterprise A and there just isn’t much room to move around. I have made the change to the “Test Bed” trait as suggested and increased the cost of the vessel by 1 point. I also removed the Come About on the movement card. It has fewer crew upgrades than the Enterprise D and lacks her 360 fire ability. This is made up for, in part, by a 180 degree natural firing arc and a Tech Upgrade slot.

Thoughts and comments welcome.

EDIT: Images removed to make thread less unwieldy
 
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Jonathan Bruce
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The tweaking contenues. I've turned the images into thumbnails and added Captain Garrett



I also am thinking of removing the Time Rift as that isn't really a tech, its just sort of something that happened.

Thoughts?

I am going to have these printed up when done.
 
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Well I like all the detail you've added - clearly the Ent-C is a love of yours.

My only meaningful feedback is that perhaps you've let that love get the best of you when it comes to the stats, ability, and maneuver dial. I think the most recent tweaks are good, but it still seems quite powerful.

I think the ship should be meaningfully smaller, and less advanced than the Ent-D.

Specifically:
With these stats it should cost the same as the Ent-D because it's got the same base stats. Being an generation older ship in the same role I feel it should cost less, so that means some of the stats *have* to drop. At least by dropping hull you get a cheaper ship, though again if you stat this close to the Ent-D you don't leave much room to have meaningful distinction between the Ent-C and ships like the Akira which are supposed to be smaller than the Ent-D as well but of the same generation.

The 180 natural firing arc is incredibly powerful and should be considered carefully when combining it with ship abilities.

I guess at the end of the day I feel like *every* ship should have some unique value, even with your recent tweaks the Ent-C is so much better than the Ent-D that you've effectively de-valued that ship!
 
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Jonathan Bruce
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adorablerocket wrote:
Well I like all the detail you've added - clearly the Ent-C is a love of yours.

My only meaningful feedback is that perhaps you've let that love get the best of you when it comes to the stats, ability, and maneuver dial. I think the most recent tweaks are good, but it still seems quite powerful.

I think the ship should be meaningfully smaller, and less advanced than the Ent-D.

Specifically:
With these stats it should cost the same as the Ent-D because it's got the same base stats. Being an generation older ship in the same role I feel it should cost less, so that means some of the stats *have* to drop. At least by dropping hull you get a cheaper ship, though again if you stat this close to the Ent-D you don't leave much room to have meaningful distinction between the Ent-C and ships like the Akira which are supposed to be smaller than the Ent-D as well but of the same generation.

The 180 natural firing arc is incredibly powerful and should be considered carefully when combining it with ship abilities.

I guess at the end of the day I feel like *every* ship should have some unique value, even with your recent tweaks the Ent-C is so much better than the Ent-D that you've effectively de-valued that ship!
What do you think of reducing the hull and attack by 1? I just think that will make it equal to the Excelsior when it comes out. I gave it a 180 degree arc instead of the 360 ability the Ent D has. Perhaps make it a 90 arc but make the special ability being able to fire primary weapon out of front and rear arc?
 
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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The Ambassador should be a 26 point ship to fall in line with its place in the fleet. That would be a 1 point deduction somewhere.

Here are stats from memory alpha:

Mass (approx hull value):
Galaxy Class - 4,500,000 metric tons
Ambassador Class - 3,710,000 metric tons
Excelsior Class - 2,350,000 metric tons

Number of decks:
Galaxy Class - 42
Ambassador Class - 33
Excelsior Class - 34

Number of Weapons (relative weapon value):
Galaxy Class - 12 phaser arrays, 2 torpedo launchers
Ambassador Class - 10 phaser arrays, 2 torpedo launchers

Just perusing through these stats, I'd say shields should probably get the deduction. In the alternative timeline, Tasha did mention that the ship had weaker shields. Hull is much closer to a Galaxy than an Excelsior. Assuming the two rolled off the line side by side, firepower would be close; the Ambassador was the top of the heap heavy cruiser before the Galaxy class was developed.
 
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Jonathan Bruce
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Shields, that's an interesting idea. Ship with comparatively weak sheilds but strong hull. I'll make the changes after work. Thank you
 
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Jonathan Bruce
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Just realized Richard Castillo's ability was ridiculously over powered so I deleted him. Why didn't anyone tell me?
 
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