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Carcassonne: Expansion 3 – The Princess & The Dragon» Forums » Rules

Subject: Portal and cloisters rss

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Joe Peterson
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Alright, there is a heated debate amongst the players we had in a game today. Here is the situation:

Player 1 played a tile with a Magic Portal on a spot that completed a cloister and then attempted to place a meeple in that cloister. Player 2 popped up with "You can't do that, since the cloister is already completed."

The discussion was around the fact that since it was completed THAT turn, it seems consistant that you could portal into the cloister and score.

What do you guys think? I know this only applies to portaling into cloisters and tiles with a lonely fairy, but it has come up.

-JEEP
 
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A L D A R O N
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Good question, and a real stumper (as is proved by the fact that it has sat here for over two hours without an answer!). I'll stick my neck out and hazard an guess:

Yes, you can use the magic gate to place a follower on a just-completed cloister. The rules (and FAQ*) prohibit placing in an "already" completed feature, but not in one that was completed by the just-placed (magic gate) tile. In fact, even this prohibition is mentioned only as an example of the normal restrictions on follower placement, and is not intended as a new rule.

* http://carcassonnefaq.blogspot.com/2005/07/can-follower-be-d...
 
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Matthew Harper
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I'd have to agree with Aldaron.

In the actual turn when the completing tile is placed, it's perhaps best to think of the feature as being in the process of completion. A lot can happen between the placement and scoring - a dragon raid, for example. If you like, placing the tile is the first step in the process of completion, and scoring is the final step. The feature isn't definitively completed until play passes to another player.

In a (semi-) parallel case, in the same turn as you place the tile, it would also be possible to parachute a meeple in from Carcassonne City to take part in the scoring; but once play has passed to another player, that completed feature is now out of bounds.

Short of a ruling from HiG, the best estimate is: yes, it's allowed!
 
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Joe Peterson
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Quote:
In a (semi-) parallel case, in the same turn as you place the tile, it would also be possible to parachute a meeple in from Carcassonne City to take part in the scoring; but once play has passed to another player, that completed feature is now out of bounds.


Well... this is clearly a different case and is explicitly spelled out in the rules.


The question about when a feature is considered complete is still open for debate. I have two "yes you can score it" votes so far. Interested in seeing some discussion. If no one else chimes in, I'll put in my $0.02.

-JEEP
 
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Matthew Harper
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jeep wrote:
Well... this is clearly a different case and is explicitly spelled out in the rules.


That's why I said (semi-) parallel. But true, it's a different case. What I was trying to do (perhaps not in the best way) was draw attention to the slightly ambiguous status of 'completed' in the turn the tile is placed in.
 
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Erik Swedlund
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Following the turn order:
1. Place a tile.
2. Optionally, place a meeple on the tile.
3. Score any completed features.

I think that this:
1. Place a tile that completes a road.
2. Place a meeple on that unoccupied road.
3. Score the completed road.

is functionally equivalent to this:
1. Place a magic portal tile that completes a cloister.
2. Place a meeple on the magic portal, teleporting it magically to the unoccupied cloister.
3. Score the completed cloister.

So, I would say YES.

How about this:
1. Place a cloister tile in a gap left by eight other tiles (completing the cloister as it is placed).
2. Place a meeple in the cloister.
3. Score the completed cloister.
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esswedl wrote:
Following the turn order:
1. Place a tile.
2. Optionally, place a meeple on the tile.
3. Score any completed features.

I think that this:
1. Place a tile that completes a road.
2. Place a meeple on that unoccupied road.
3. Score the completed road.

is functionally equivalent to this:
1. Place a magic portal tile that completes a cloister.
2. Place a meeple on the magic portal, teleporting it magically to the unoccupied cloister.
3. Score the completed cloister.

So, I would say YES.

How about this:
1. Place a cloister tile in a gap left by eight other tiles (completing the cloister as it is placed).
2. Place a meeple in the cloister.
3. Score the completed cloister.

These are not equivalent, and that's the reason the question is a tricky one: your first (rules), second, and fourth examples are equvalent, and work because the rules specifically state that you can place a follower on the just-placed tile (regardless of whether that tile just completed a feature). In all those cases, the just-placed tile is part of the feature being scored. But the question is about your third example, which differs from the others because the just-placed tile is not part of the cloister. That's the reason the question arises in the first place.

Still, I agree with your conclusion, but for different reasons (see above).
 
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Joe Peterson
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OK, I'll put in my $0.02 now, there has been enough time for people to chime in:

I was player 2 above. I don't think you can make that placement.

Here is why:
Quote:


Step 1:
If the Fairy is with one of your followers score 1 point.

Step 2:
The player must draw one land tile and place it. An unplayable tile is discarded and a new one is drawn.
If the tile completed a city with trade goods the player who placed the tile takes the corresponding trade good tokens.
If the tile completed a city larger than any previous city then the player who placed the tile takes the King.
If the tile completed a road longer than any previous road then the player who placed the tile takes the Robber Baron.


The cloister is complete at this point.

Quote:

Step 3:
The player may play, move or remove one follower or character in accordance with the rules.
Possible actions are:
Place one knight, thief, farmer, monk, pig or builder
Remove one knight or builder with the aid of a Princess
Place or move the Fairy
If the tile placed is a volcano then the Dragon must be placed on it.
You may only do one of these.


Therefore, the portal's rule preventing placment on a completed feature will prevent followers from going there at this point. I'm not saying it shouldn't be the other way, I'm just saying that according to the FAQ (and my reading of the rules) it's not allowed.

I'm still waffling on whether is should or shouldn't be allowed. But currently, I feel it isn't allowed.

Quote:

Step 4:
If the tile placed shows a dragon then the Dragon moves now.
Note that the player could have moved the Fairy in Step 3.
Note that scoring has not yet taken place, so if the Dragon eats a follower in a completed area that follower will not count when determining the majority in that area for scoring purposes.


Note that the wording here shows a counterpoint to the idea that a feature starts to complete when you place the tile and finishes completing when you score it.

Quote:
Step 5:

If the placed tile completes any cities, roads or cloisters then start the scoring process
If you are using the Count, optionally move followers from Carcassonne to the area being scored
Detemine which players have the majority in each completed area
Calculate the score for each player (a pig can give one player more points than another)


As does this.

Well, I stated my peace and we'll decide on a house rule before we play again, but we're certainly intersted in other people's interpretation.

-JEEP
 
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Erik Swedlund
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Isn't the restriction against placing a meeple in an already scored feature, not an already completed feature--this bypasses the question of when a feature is completed or "in the process of completion"?

The Princess & the Dragon rules allow you to place a meeple on the gate tile or any other legal tile following the normal placement rules, not in an occupied feature and not in an already scored feature.

I still believe my third example is equivalent. The magic gate allows the exception of placing on a tile not just played. At the time you place your meeple, the cloister has not yet scored, although it has been completed.
 
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jeep wrote:
Here is why:

What are you quoting?
 
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esswedl wrote:
Isn't the restriction against placing a meeple in an already scored feature

No, that's an error.*

* http://carcassonnefaq.blogspot.com/2005/07/can-follower-be-d...
 
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Joe Peterson
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Aldaron wrote:
jeep wrote:
Here is why:

What are you quoting?


http://www.modernjive.com/carcassonne/carcassonne.htm

-JEEP
 
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jeep wrote:
Aldaron wrote:
jeep wrote:
Here is why:

What are you quoting?

http://www.modernjive.com/carcassonne/carcassonne.htm

Another view: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/786023
 
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Joe Peterson
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The play order you list in the linked article also seems to support my point.

-JEEP
 
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Matthew Harper
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jeep wrote:
Note that the wording here shows a counterpoint to the idea that a feature starts to complete when you place the tile and finishes completing when you score it.

At the risk of digging myself even deeper into a hole, I'd have to disagree here. There is still a clear difference between a 'just-completed' feature and an 'already-completed' feature. A just-completed feature is about to be scored; and an 'already-completed' feature has already been scored, or can no longer be scored because it was not scored in the turn in which it was completed. And it seems to me that your main argument for saying 'No' in this case rests on a not being clear about the difference.

I think Aldaron summarised the problem when he said:
Aldaron wrote:
But the question is about your third example, which differs from the others because the just-placed tile is not part of the cloister.

How does the magic gate function? The player placing the tile may put in any legal position on the board, and then, instead of deploying a meeple to that tile, deploy it to any tile already in play, as long as the usual rules are adhered to. Now, and I'm being a little liberal here, what that means is that the magic gate tile allows you to deploy a meeple to any tile in play as if that tile had just been placed. So you placed a magic gate which completed the cloister grounds (one of the eight surrounding cards); but the magic gate allows you to deploy a meeple to the central building, as if it were that tile which had just been placed, and not the magic gate tile. This idea of 'as if it had just been placed' - and I'm sure I've read that somewhere - would logically enough be the reason why all the normal rules must be adhered to; and it is that which distinguishes the magic gate from parachuting meeples from Carcassonne City, which can ignore those rules (although not even they are allowed onto an 'already-completed' feature).

Ultimately, what I'm saying is that it has very little to do with the 'play order' you mention, and a lot to do with what it is the magic gate is supposed to do, and how that relates to 'just-completed' features.
 
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Joe Peterson
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mjharper wrote:
There is still a clear difference between a 'just-completed' feature and an 'already-completed' feature. A just-completed feature is about to be scored; and an 'already-completed' feature has already been scored, or can no longer be scored because it was not scored in the turn in which it was completed.



I don't agree that it's clear, but that doesn't matter.

Quote:
Now, and I'm being a little liberal here, what that means is that the magic gate tile allows you to deploy a meeple to any tile in play as if that tile had just been placed.


Very liberal interpretation. If it was worded that way, I would agree with you. I like that interpretation and I think we'll use it, with that wording, as our house rule. I still disagree that is the way the rules currently read.

However, if that was what was intended, then the "cannot place in an already complete feature" would not need to be stated... All of the counfusion could be due to translation issues, though.

-JEEP
 
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Matt has it exactly right:

mjharper wrote:
There is still a clear difference between a 'just-completed' feature and an 'already-completed' feature. A just-completed feature is about to be scored; and an 'already-completed' feature has already been scored, or can no longer be scored because it was not scored in the turn in which it was completed. And it seems to me that your main argument for saying 'No' in this case rests on a not being clear about the difference.

The intent of the German rules is clear (even the error of saying "already scored" instead of "already completed" is revealing). You just can't use the magic gate to place a follower in a feature that was completed in an earlier turn -- i.e. one that has already had its opportunity to be scored. Perhaps this would be clearer if instead if having corrected the erroneous rule from "already scored" to "already completed", HiG had corrected to "already scored, even if no points were awarded".

(Note that technically, this clarification isn't even strictly necessary, since all completed features are scored, regardless of whether anyone owns them.)
 
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Joe Peterson
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[quote]Now, and I'm being a little liberal here, what that means is that the magic gate tile allows you to deploy a meeple to any tile in play as if that tile had just been placed.[/quote]

And this actually doesn't work, since you could then score the same city multiple times.

Aldaron wrote:
Matt has it exactly right:
Perhaps this would be clearer if instead if having corrected the erroneous rule from "already scored" to "already completed", HiG had corrected to "already scored, even if no points were awarded".


Alright, that's better.

-JEEP
 
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Matthew Harper
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jeep wrote:
mjharper wrote:
Now, and I'm being a little liberal here, what that means is that the magic gate tile allows you to deploy a meeple to any tile in play as if that tile had just been placed.


And this actually doesn't work, since you could then score the same city multiple times.

Taken on it's own, you're right; but that's why the distinction between 'just-completed' and 'already-completed' is important. Should try to look for a clearer formulation…

I did say I might dig myself into a deeper hole, didn't I?
 
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Matthew Harper
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mjharper wrote:
This idea of 'as if it had just been placed' - and I'm sure I've read that somewhere - would logically enough be the reason why all the normal rules must be adhered to

I knew I'd read that somewhere before, and here it is:
HiG wrote:
Question: Can a follower be deployed to the city of Carcassonne via a magic gate?

Answer: No. The magic gate only allows followers to be deployed to tiles that can be legally occupied according to the usual rules, as if the player had just placed the tile in question. The city of Carcassonne is occupied according to different rules.

(source: http://carcassonnefaq.blogspot.com/2005/07/can-follower-be-d...)
So that is the official line on the magic gate, and my interpretation wasn't so liberal after all.

Incidentally, I'm in the process of adding a search function to my site, so these things will be easier to find next time!
 
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Yee Keat Phuah
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6 years and there's no response from Designer or Publisher?

The FAQ link is dead.

Since sequence of events seems ultra important in a game of carcassonne with its expansions, I interpret it as NO, it should not be allowed. Because it says "place" the tile as normal and then choose to teleport.
 
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ykphuah wrote:
6 years and there's no response from Designer or Publisher..

But the question has been answered here.
 
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