Sean B
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In another thread an off-topic discussion occured and I think some really solid points were made, so I wanted to relocate them to an appropriate place for discussion:

Jasperhawk wrote:
l33tspaniard wrote:
Any turn the humans aren't using to full efficiency is a turn in favor of the cylons, and that's what mutiny is there for.


Totally the wrong place to be discussing it, but I agree with this. The fact that Mutineer exists and is heavily favored by FFG as the balancing mechanism for off-balance games suggests that they also agree. I think the problem (and this is a conclusion I came to even before the events of v87, though they're exacerbated there) is that Necessary Steps completely dictates the course of the game. Major Tom not only gets to know exactly what Mutiny card each player has at all points of the game, he also gets a large measure of control. Imagine if someone had that amount of control over any other deck: only Roslin even approaches it with the Crisis Deck, and even then she only gets to use it on her turn, and she's saddled with a crippling drawback and a rather meh OPG. Would a Billy that had that sort of control over the Quorum Deck even be closed to balanced? Or a Gaeta with that much control over the Destination deck? And Tom doesn't even have a bad drawback to compensate.

I'm pretty sure Major Tom needs to be toned down so that people can actually be dealt Mutiny that hurts Team Human more than it helps them (assuming he's Human). He needs to either lose the ability to know exactly what people have or the ability to control what they get. Probably something like:

Necessary Steps: Before any player draws a Mutiny Card, look at the top card of the Mutiny Deck. You may put that card on the bottom of the deck.

A free scout of the Mutiny Deck whenever someone needs to draw, but if he wants to avoid a bad (or good) Mutiny he has to accept that he won't know what they get instead.


Now on the whole I'm not quite sure that I agree Zarek's ability needs to be nerfed. He's only particularly powerful in a game with a Mutineer or a game in which he is a cylon and has an ally with easy access to treachery (or just lots of treachery to himself). In those situations though, he does have a lot more knowledge than is ever given to any other character in BSG. It tends to bend 6-player games in favor of whatever team Zarek is on, which is similar to issues people had with the old cylon leader agendas (and are still having with idiots people who play the motives like they are agendas, but that's a topic for another thread).

Thematically it's perfectly sound. Balance-wise, the issues are obvious, but are they severe? I'm not really sure. So let's discuss.
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I agree with Jasper at this point and as for his proposed idea, I think he's really made the grade.

But I would personally like to see a couple more games with him in play and lots of Mutiny moving around, to really make a decision about how he is affecting the game before I would actually implement the change. I feel like it needs to happen, but I want to know it also.
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oriecat wrote:
I agree with Jasper at this point and as for his proposed idea, I think he's really made the grade.

But I would personally like to see a couple more games with him in play and lots of Mutiny moving around, to really make a decision about how he is affecting the game before I would actually implement the change. I feel like it needs to happen, but I want to know it also.


Agreed, I want to see more daybreak games in general so we can nail down how everything works. Having played Zarek in a 6p game where the mutiny flowed it was a very powerful effect.
 
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That's about how I feel. I feel like something should happen but am not sure of it.

Also of note: Zarek's miracle is pretty damn bad. The nega-Roslin thing is neat and all, but Mutiny cards are substantially more situational than the Quorum. The only things worth grabbing (title-stealing cards, Make A Deal, and maybe strong survive or the resource boosters) are far more likely to be buried or given away with the rate he digs through the deck.

His drawback is totally insignificant. I think the reasoning for that is for the 5p games and CL games where his abilities are much less useful.

His LoS is frakking obscenely good. In any given game he tends to be #2, #3 at worst for both titles (even CAG, he'll usually be at worst #3)
 
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l33tspaniard wrote:
In another thread an off-topic discussion occured and I think some really solid points were made, so I wanted to relocate them to an appropriate place for discussion:
If someone can linked that thread, it'd be nice, although it's likely I probably already viewed it.

l33tspaniard wrote:
That's about how I feel. I feel like something should happen but am not sure of it.

Also of note: Zarek's miracle is pretty damn bad. The nega-Roslin thing is neat and all, but Mutiny cards are substantially more situational than the Quorum. The only things worth grabbing (title-stealing cards, Make A Deal, and maybe strong survive or the resource boosters) are far more likely to be buried or given away with the rate he digs through the deck.

His drawback is totally insignificant. I think the reasoning for that is for the 5p games and CL games where his abilities are much less useful.

His LoS is frakking obscenely good. In any given game he tends to be #2, #3 at worst for both titles (even CAG, he'll usually be at worst #3)
That's my take.... it's hard to "properly" tweak MutiRek (... hmmm, maybe this name's not as good a "Cultar" or "NuPollo") on account that the Mutiny deck can be "swingy"... it really is a chip off of Qcards.

As a cylon, I like Feed The People. If you're playing without Exodus, this is pretty much that reveal power. Combine this with that, or this with Massive Assault, and you can completely undo up to a whole jump cycle from -1 right back to start. As a cylon, if someone else already played that (it gets removed from the game), then it does permanently go off my radar.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1041621/feed-the-people-...

Mutirek and Roslin's OPG aren't tried and true like some other OPGs, but they can be used as sort of a hail mary to see if you can get favorable results if you've got no other sure way to get whatever it is you wanted to get done. Tory's OPG gets decent if someone can follow it up though.
 
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l33tspaniard wrote:

Also of note: Zarek's miracle is pretty damn bad.


In one of our vassal games it was send himself to Sickbay for a free scout. It was funny.
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ackmondual wrote:
l33tspaniard wrote:
In another thread an off-topic discussion occured and I think some really solid points were made, so I wanted to relocate them to an appropriate place for discussion:
If someone can linked that thread, it'd be nice, although it's likely I probably already viewed it.


It's the Revelations thread.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/816644/revelations-unoff...
 
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l33tspaniard wrote:

Also of note: Zarek's miracle is pretty damn bad.


As a human, possibly outside the hail mary.

As a cylon, its quite useful from the brig or fishing for one last hit prior to reveal.

I don't think he needs to be nerfed. If anything I would prevent him from becoming mutineer somehow (as that gives him one more layer of control over mutiny cards). Perhaps if he gets mutineer, he gives it away (perhaps randomly). I don't think that is necessary, but if you're having trouble with him, I'd go that route before anything else.

He's certainly not overpowered in a non mutineer game.
 
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Why would you Nerf it? lol.

It is situational at best, most games don't really have that much mutiny, and if he is a cylon, then he usually will have revealed and lost his power much later in the game.

He has been fun in all our games, but he certainly hasn't made much of a difference to who won or lost.
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Kamakaze wrote:
Why would you Nerf it? lol.

It is situational at best, most games don't really have that much mutiny, and if he is a cylon, then he usually will have revealed and lost his power much later in the game.

He has been fun in all our games, but he certainly hasn't made much of a difference to who won or lost.


New Zarek is an interesting one - in a game where not much Mutiny happens, his power doesn't do much; in a game where the Mutiny flows freely, once you get halfway through the deck, you're down to the Mutiny cards he rejected at first glance; 3/4 and they've been rejected twice, and so on. In other words, while he knows where all the Mutiny is, as the game progresses, the Mutiny gets worse for his pre-Sleeper side...

I agree that his lousy OPG (unless he's been keeping notes) means he's fairly balanced overall, and the self-limiting nature of his ability keeps it from being too broken...
 
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rmsgrey wrote:
Kamakaze wrote:
Why would you Nerf it? lol.

It is situational at best, most games don't really have that much mutiny, and if he is a cylon, then he usually will have revealed and lost his power much later in the game.

He has been fun in all our games, but he certainly hasn't made much of a difference to who won or lost.


New Zarek is an interesting one - in a game where not much Mutiny happens, his power doesn't do much; in a game where the Mutiny flows freely, once you get halfway through the deck, you're down to the Mutiny cards he rejected at first glance; 3/4 and they've been rejected twice, and so on. In other words, while he knows where all the Mutiny is, as the game progresses, the Mutiny gets worse for his pre-Sleeper side...

I agree that his lousy OPG (unless he's been keeping notes) means he's fairly balanced overall, and the self-limiting nature of his ability keeps it from being too broken...


In addition to what's been said before, I think that memory itself will limit him in a game where lots of mutiny is drawn. If it's coming fast and furious, most people will have an issue remembering exactly what's come up and who is holding on to which cards.
 
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Yeah, that thought occurred to me this morning on the way to work. Maybe this is a bigger issue for PBF where Zarek can easily check his GMs than in f2f.
 
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That's also a solid point. But in PBF games it's a bit of a nuisance because he can go back and make sure what he's given out. ninja

I suppose in F2F games you can write it down, but it would be way conspicuous.
 
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I once had someone ask me if I allowed note taking at the games I host at my house. First time anyone had ever mentioned it, but yeah, no, we're not gonna do that.
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Yeah, I'm instituting that policy as well. Although no one has been brave enough to play Major Tom but me.
 
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Maybe it's just me but it's not that hard to keep track of things since players can only have one mutiny card.
 
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I've also seen PBF games set up with a rule of " don't look up information more than a page or two old". It's not enforcable, but it helps add some f2f feel if players are willing to abide by it.
 
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fizzmore wrote:
I've also seen PBF games set up with a rule of " don't look up information more than a page or two old". It's not enforcable, but it helps add some f2f feel if players are willing to abide by it.
I've also already seen more than one player using the "this should be fine since in a PBF game, you can't use players' body language, tone, and facial expressions to help you find the cylon". I'd say having a complete log is waay more OP than that can ever be.
 
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ackmondual wrote:
fizzmore wrote:
I've also seen PBF games set up with a rule of " don't look up information more than a page or two old". It's not enforcable, but it helps add some f2f feel if players are willing to abide by it.
I've also already seen more than one player using the "this should be fine since in a PBF game, you can't use players' body language, tone, and facial expressions to help you find the cylon". I'd say having a complete log is waay more OP than that can ever be.


There's a balance to be struck between not abusing the perfect record that's available, and compensating for the fact that you'll forget things over the course of a month that you wouldn't forget over the course of three hours.

In a face to face game, you can keep track of a few things - like how many Piloting cards have turned up in Skill Checks during the current Destiny Deck - that you can't track without notes in a PBF simply because you need to deal with the rest of your life... And that's before considering the loss of the information from body language and suspicious pauses for thought and suchlike.

My general feeling is that it's fine to take notes, provided it's not taken to excess, but not to check back for the actual events.
 
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rmsgrey wrote:
My general feeling is that it's fine to take notes, provided it's not taken to excess, but not to check back for the actual events.

Perhaps just write each player's name down and put a mark down each time they do something suspicious.
 
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l33tspaniard wrote:
...He needs to either lose the ability to know exactly what people have or the ability to control what they get. Probably something like:

Necessary Steps: Before any player draws a Mutiny Card, look at the top card of the Mutiny Deck. You may put that card on the bottom of the deck.

Interesting patch, we might consider that in the future.

l33tspaniard wrote:
Now on the whole I'm not quite sure that I agree Zarek's ability needs to be nerfed. He's only particularly powerful in a game with a Mutineer or a game in which he is a cylon and has an ally with easy access to treachery (or just lots of treachery to himself)........

Our group decided to just ban Major Tom in all games with Mutineer and leave him unchanged for now. The Mutiny deck is too heterogenous to ignore such a strong interfernece with the Mutineer balance by selection of draws.
 
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What if you just made necessary steps not apply to the Mutineer's draws for jump icons on their turn? Then Mutirek would be just as powerful in games without mutineer as games with.

Just a random thought that occurred to me at the moment--I haven't gotten to play Daybreak much, unfortunately, and the two times he was in play he happened to get mutineer, so I don't really know how powerful he'd be without mutineer.
 
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Kiwi13cubed wrote:
What if you just made necessary steps not apply to the Mutineer's draws for jump icons on their turn? Then Mutirek would be just as powerful in games without mutineer as games with.

Just a random thought that occurred to me at the moment--I haven't gotten to play Daybreak much, unfortunately, and the two times he was in play he happened to get mutineer, so I don't really know how powerful he'd be without mutineer.


the issue isn't so much mutineer as that some games the mutiny cards will just keep coming from treachery and crises that make him powerful.
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darthbalmung wrote:
Kiwi13cubed wrote:
What if you just made necessary steps not apply to the Mutineer's draws for jump icons on their turn? Then Mutirek would be just as powerful in games without mutineer as games with.

Just a random thought that occurred to me at the moment--I haven't gotten to play Daybreak much, unfortunately, and the two times he was in play he happened to get mutineer, so I don't really know how powerful he'd be without mutineer.


the issue isn't so much mutineer as that some games the mutiny cards will just keep coming from treachery and crises that make him powerful.

I was basing my suggestion on this:
BadPritt wrote:
Our group decided to just ban Major Tom in all games with Mutineer and leave him unchanged for now.
 
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