Robert Stewart
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After a long game, with lots of Mutiny being drawn, what happens with new-Zarek's ability when there's only one card left in the Mutiny deck?

His ability says: "[...]look at the top 2 cards[...]"

The rules say: "Whenever a deck of cards runs out, the current player
shuffles the appropriate discard pile to form a new deck."

I can see two possible resolutions:

A) The card is still in the deck while Zarek looks at it, so he looks at it, gives it to the player, and is then unable to put the other one on the bottom of the Mutiny deck since there is no other - but the current player then shuffles the discards to form the new Mutiny deck (current player's choice whether to wait for the player getting Mutiny to discard any excess Mutiny before shuffling the new deck, since both happen immediately, but not to wait for the discard from the player who activated the Press Room)

B) When Zarek needs to look at a second card from the one-card deck, the deck has run out, so he also looks at the top card of the new Mutiny deck, hands one to the player, and buries the other under the new Mutiny deck.
 
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M. B. Downey
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rmsgrey wrote:
B) When Zarek needs to look at a second card from the one-card deck, the deck has run out, so he also looks at the top card of the new Mutiny deck, hands one to the player, and buries the other under the new Mutiny deck.


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Pasi Ojala
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The wording of "look at the top 2 cards" is in my mind just because it is not (always) newZarek who actually "draws" the Mutiny card. (The difference may not be significant.)

What I see happening is in actuality: newZarek takes two top cards from the Mutiny deck, gives one to the player performing the actual draw, then puts the other one at the bottom of the deck. So, the Mutiny discard is shuffled to make a new Mutiny deck in the middle of taking those two cards. (B)

Yes, this might have happened during our first Daybreak game. I cycled the Mutiny deck at least twice as newZarek Mutineer.
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Carl Bussema
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I believe the standard in BSG is that a deck is shuffled when empty, not when a new card is needed. Thus, as soon as the mutiny deck is empty, it is shuffled, and therefore B is correct.
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Robert Stewart
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So why doesn't the Mutiny deck get shuffled when there are two cards left and Zarek looks at them both?

If Zarek looking at the cards removes them from the deck, then that's when the Mutiny deck empties - when he looks at the last two; if him looking at the cards doesn't remove them from the deck, then the deck isn't empty until Zarek hands one of them to the player drawing a card...
 
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Carl Bussema
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rmsgrey wrote:
So why doesn't the Mutiny deck get shuffled when there are two cards left and Zarek looks at them both?


Who said it doesn't? The original question pertained to
Quote:
when there's only one card left in the Mutiny deck


I'd rule that the deck is empty after Zarek draws the last 2 cards, even if he's about to put one back, it's still empty at that moment.
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Robert Stewart
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InfoCynic wrote:
I'd rule that the deck is empty after Zarek draws the last 2 cards, even if he's about to put one back, it's still empty at that moment.


One thing he doesn't do is draw two mutiny cards - at least not if he's staying out of the Brig...

Given the question is a nitpicky one that rests on precise wordings, imprecisely worded answers lack conviction...
 
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Carl Bussema
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Yeah, sorry, that was late at night. I had a brain fart and thought his ability worked like Roslin's visions, since my last game actually had Roslin in it.

I've gone back to the original wording, and decided that since Zarek only looks at but does not draw the Mutiny card, that if it is the only card in the deck, his ability does nothing other than let him see the card (so he might know when it's useful for you to play it, and therefore if you're not using it when it would really help, you're a Cylon), because the deck is never empty, and when he puts it back "on the bottom of the deck," it doesn't do anything.

Now, if you want to go for "spirit of the rules" and make a house rule that the discards are shuffled when he looks at that top card, that seems totally fine, and probably how his ability should work. In that case, if he discards it, he puts it on the bottom of the newly-shuffled deck.

Since the case of "looking at" the last card in a deck can't come up by other means, I don't believe it's 100% covered by any rule, and have poked Tim for an answer. It's possible that he'll say that "looking at" counts as emptying the pile, even though it really doesn't, if you read things literally.
 
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Daniel Loke
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BUT MY DREAMS THEY AREN'T AS EMPTY
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With an even number of Mutiny cards (22), isn't it impossible to even have this situation arise unless you've already gone through the deck once?

Edit: Oh wait, it's "place on bottom", not discard. Carry on.
 
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Wait, it DOES work like visions. Another thread confused me, not to mention everything going on in here trying to confuse me. Tim's answer should cover things at any rate.
 
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schmloof wrote:
With an even number of Mutiny cards (22), isn't it impossible to even have this situation arise


You can also become nuZarek in the middle of the game.
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Robert Stewart
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InfoCynic wrote:
Wait, it DOES work like visions. Another thread confused me, not to mention everything going on in here trying to confuse me. Tim's answer should cover things at any rate.


Yeah, it works like Religious Visions, but you're never going to run through 70 Crises in a game (Okay, technically, if all the humans are in the Brig and the Cylons keep using base-game Caprica and somehow fail to finish off the humans, you could get there - or if you go infinite with State of Emergency) but drawing through the 22 Mutiny cards seems much more plausible.

We haven't needed a ruling for Religious Visions, Pegasus/Daybreak Caprica, Boomer's minor, Recon, Launch Scout or new Helo's minor, Raptor Pilot, because it's never going to come up - Crises are not going to run out in practice and Destinations are impossible to run out - the only time a Destination is removed from the deck is when it's jumped to, which can happen at most 11 times (a game to Earth with 10 distance 1 Destinations and a Misjump) - though that requires the expansion Destinations in the Destination deck. With the 22 base game Destinations, you can't use more than 9 Destinations to reach Earth - 7 distance 1, a distance 2 and another - or 8 to Kobol - 7 distance 1 and any other.

Tory's OPG, Influential, also has the potential to look at more cards than remain in a deck - in her case, the Quorum deck. Dee's OPG, Fast Learner, also says to look at the top three cards of a deck that could hold fewer.

Roslin's OPG, Skilled Politician, Major Tom's OPG, Abuse Power, and Leoben's minor, Glimpse the Face of God all say to draw the cards rather than just look at them.

So the ruling will apply in practice to Influential, Fast Learner and Necessary Steps, and in theory to Pegasus/Daybreak Caprica, Launch Scout, Raptor Pilot, Recon and Religious Visions.
 
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Robert Stewart
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Ruling is in: apparently a deck counts as empty when all cards remaining are being looked at (but presumably not when the entire deck is being looked at)
 
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