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Subject: Playing Whizzard like Gabe rss

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Lysander
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Why don't I see more of this?! I made this deck a week ago, and it performs near Gabe-level. I feel like too many Whizzard decks get hung up on making Darwin efficient or setting up Atmin/fixed breakers with Datasucker.

The key is to run, run, run. Forget a rig, you can build it along the way if you need it (only once have I installed more than one icebreaker).


Whizzard: Consummate Professional (45 cards)

Whizzard: Master Gamer

Event (15)
3 Account Siphon ••••• ••••• ••
2 Deja Vu
2 Kraken
3 Quality Time •••
3 Sure Gamble
2 Vamp

Hardware (4)
1 Grimoire
3 Plascrete Carapace

Resource (11)
3 Data Leak Reversal
3 Joshua B.
3 Liberated Account
2 Same Old Thing

Icebreaker (6)
2 Corroder
2 Mimic
2 Yog.0

Program (9)
2 Datasucker
2 Imp
1 Medium
1 Nerve Agent
3 Parasite


Alternately, the third Siphon could be exchanged for two Emergency Shutdowns.


Thoughts on how to improve this archetype?
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Drake Villareal
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I honestly think that New Angeles City Hall is worth running anywhere there is 3 Siphons, 2 Vamp, 3 Joshua B. and 11 Resources.

While you hammer away econ, it saves you lots of time and worry (especially if plascrete doesn't show up).

People are turning back to Powergrid Overload, I wouldn't rely solely on Plascrete.

Otherwise, it looks solid...but...is whizzard really any better at this style than gabe?

Have you tried running this as noise? You could drop the DLR and DLR support, add Sahasrara and more viruses (LIKE GORMAN) and play it the same way.
 
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Lysander
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What places Whizzard above Gabe in this deck is his ability to further shut down the corp's econ while trashing any troublesome ice (most notably, those that are Oversight AI'd).

NACH would actually make this deck worse. Yes, there are 11 resources, but you can take all credits off Liberated Accounts with Joshua, or even without it's a wash for the corp whether or not to trash with 4 credits on it. The other resources either hurt the corp regardless (Joshua, in that it's difficult to trash with little money), or provides less than marginal benefit to trash (SOT). You want to be able to ignore tags entirely. If they trash your resources it's fine; they're just that much poorer.

As for Noise and Plascrete: this deck, like Gabe, is poor early, and needs to save as many credits as possible, which is where Whizzard's recurring credits come into play. Typically I only install 3-6 viruses per game anyways, and DLR trashes at least as many, and can do it in one turn rather than over the course of several turns. It's pretty easy to trash one or two SE's with DLR and Imp, so honestly, I've been contemplating cutting a Plascrete.
 
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Vince Alvarez
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Lysander1 wrote:
Why don't I see more of this?! I made this deck a week ago, and it performs near Gabe-level. I feel like too many Whizzard decks get hung up on making Darwin efficient or setting up Atmin/fixed breakers with Datasucker.

The key is to run, run, run. Forget a rig, you can build it along the way if you need it (only once have I installed more than one icebreaker).


Whizzard: Consummate Professional (45 cards)

Whizzard: Master Gamer

Event (15)
3 Account Siphon ••••• ••••• ••
2 Deja Vu
2 Kraken
3 Quality Time •••
3 Sure Gamble
2 Vamp

Hardware (4)
1 Grimoire
3 Plascrete Carapace

Resource (11)
3 Data Leak Reversal
3 Joshua B.
3 Liberated Account
2 Same Old Thing

Icebreaker (6)
2 Corroder
2 Mimic
2 Yog.0

Program (9)
2 Datasucker
2 Imp
1 Medium
1 Nerve Agent
3 Parasite


Alternately, the third Siphon could be exchanged for two Emergency Shutdowns.


Thoughts on how to improve this archetype?


I like the idea, and it certainly fits a style I find attractive. A couple of things stick out to me.

1) Is your economy sustainable? It looks like you only have 3x Sure Gamble and 3x Liberated Accounts. Sure you can Siphon, but then you must clear tags if you have/want your LAs out, which seems asynergistic with DLR + Josh B. Then you have Vamp, but how are you getting the necessary economy to fuel the Vamp runs?

2) It seems that there are some cards that are important that you only include 1x of. Grimoire is your only means of gaining extra MU for your parasites and other viruses. Of which you also only have 1x.

3) Kraken?

All that being said, I think this archetype is a strong counter-type to the Whizzard-Darwin builds. But what makes it any better than Gabe or Andy, where you can pick from all the criminal tricks? Is it Whizzard's ability? I find that it's an ability that wants to dig R&D and H&Q and trash stuff, which means that the corp will be icing those up so you'll want a rig sooner or later.

All in all, I like it. Run, run, run. It certainly seems like it will make the corp play very reactively. Which is always nice.
 
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Doug Law
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After playing around with a similar deck concept, although different looking deck, I think it has a lot of potential, but I couldn't seem to get the economy working well. If a corp could get any kind of economic superiority, my deck would crumble. It seemed like the in-faction Anarcg economy was too weak to get enough Vamp use and all my influence was spent on supporting my strategy. Maybe I'll try your list and see how I can do.
 
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I like it! Here's my own take on the same idea:

Noise JB Suicide (Opening Moves) (45 cards)

Noise: Hacker Extraordinaire

Event (9)
2 Account Siphon ••••• •••
1 Deja Vu
3 Dirty Laundry
3 Sure Gamble

Hardware (6)
3 Grimoire
3 Plascrete Carapace

Resource (8)
3 Data Leak Reversal
3 Joshua B.
2 Same Old Thing

Icebreaker (9)
3 Corroder
1 Femme Fatale
3 Mimic
2 Yog.0

Program (13)
3 Datasucker
2 Imp
2 Medium
3 Parasite
3 Sahasrara ••••• •

Built with http://netrunner.meteor.com/

Basically the same idea but in my spare time I'll do some Noise milling. Sahasrara prevents me from running out of steam if Dirty Laundry / Account Siphons become unusable for a time.
 
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Lysander
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heyvince wrote:

I like the idea, and it certainly fits a style I find attractive. A couple of things stick out to me.

1) Is your economy sustainable? It looks like you only have 3x Sure Gamble and 3x Liberated Accounts. Sure you can Siphon, but then you must clear tags if you have/want your LAs out, which seems asynergistic with DLR + Josh B. Then you have Vamp, but how are you getting the necessary economy to fuel the Vamp runs?

2) It seems that there are some cards that are important that you only include 1x of. Grimoire is your only means of gaining extra MU for your parasites and other viruses. Of which you also only have 1x.

3) Kraken?

All that being said, I think this archetype is a strong counter-type to the Whizzard-Darwin builds. But what makes it any better than Gabe or Andy, where you can pick from all the criminal tricks? Is it Whizzard's ability? I find that it's an ability that wants to dig R&D and H&Q and trash stuff, which means that the corp will be icing those up so you'll want a rig sooner or later.

All in all, I like it. Run, run, run. It certainly seems like it will make the corp play very reactively. Which is always nice.


As I touched upon briefly (I suspect we were posting simultaneously), Liberated Accounts can still be used when tagged (not ideal, as it takes an entire turn, but it works). The nice thing is that your rig is the cheapest to use, and you don't plan on using it much anyways. Since you're building as you go, Grimoire is more useful late-game when you have your rig and still need to put your Parasites/Nerve Agent/etc in play. It's good to not be tempted into installing it early, as it takes a hit on your tempo, which Whizzard can't afford, hence only having one.

Kraken has actually been pleasing to play. Coupled with Parasite, it essentially allows me to choose which ice I want trashed. If nothing else, I was able to use it on Archives since it always had only one ice, making retrieving the spoils from DLR much easier.



It's not as rich as, say, Andromeda with Kati, but it is easily on par with other tag-me decks, and with the games I had played, I already had 4-5 agenda points by the time I started wishing I had Kati, and obtaining the last AP is easy with DLR, Deja Vu, and Parasite in faction. Kati decks often eat Fast/Never Advance decks' dust, and this one actually shuts it down. Hard.


edit: Wow DrTall, our decks are insanely similar. I'll have to give that one a try to see how I like it in comparison!
 
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Vince Alvarez
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Yeah, but why Kraken?

 
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Daniel D
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That's near card-for-card the Whizzard list I've been playing since around late July, funnily enough. I don't use it much on OCTGN anymore, I forget why. But I put it together for a league that awarded points when you used ID's that weren't being used (1 point for every week it wasn't used).

It's a brutal list as long as they're running asset economy. And the DLR serves as a strong cleanup after a vamp.
 
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Lysander
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lol It's one of those cards you have to play to appreciate, I suppose. It's worked well for me since the entire premise of this deck is to deny corps money and ice. Granted, the deck can play without it, and I'm not in love with the card, but it works.
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Martin Presley
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I would take out Kraken for two Datasucker and Imp, those cards are amazing. Maybe also go to 2 Grimoire and 2 Plascretes, though the Weyland match is rough for Whizzard.

As a long- time Criminal, I wholeheartedly endorse this style.
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Greg Nordeng
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RELEASE THE KRAKEN!!!!!

No seriously... release it...
 
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Beyer
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Lysander1 wrote:
...I feel like too many Whizzard decks get hung up on making Darwin efficient or setting up Atmin/fixed breakers with Datasucker.
...

Icebreaker (6)
2 Corroder
2 Mimic
2 Yog.0
...


But... you're running fixed strength breakers.
Why is your deck different from the others that run fixed strength breakers and datasuckers?

It looks awesome and I'm happy there are so many topic on Whizzard at the moment. I'm planning on giving him an extensive try soon.
 
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Stan Adecla
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Nords3x4 wrote:
RELEASE THE KRAKEN!!!!!

No seriously... release it...



Keep on Kraken, son.
Card is godlike in early aggro decks.
--以上

Stunke wrote:
Lysander1 wrote:
...I feel like too many Whizzard decks get hung up on making Darwin efficient or setting up Atmin/fixed breakers with Datasucker.
...

Icebreaker (6)
2 Corroder
2 Mimic
2 Yog.0
...


But... you're running fixed strength breakers.
Why is your deck different from the others that run fixed strength breakers and datasuckers?

It looks awesome and I'm happy there are so many topic on Whizzard at the moment. I'm planning on giving him an extensive try soon.

he's got no Datasuckers
--drops mic
 
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Lysander
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2097 wrote:
Lysander1, what’s the plan with Joshua B / DLR?


Drop the first Joshua as early as possible and use liberally (preferrably after using up a Liberated Accounts, though not required). If it's trashed, proceed as usual with Parasite/attacking HQ/R&D and econ denial. If it isn't trashed (many corps don't trash him right away), you get 5-click turns until they do trash him. Once you have one or two DLR: Siphon, Install DLR, Install DLR, Install Joshua (if not installed). Then mill as often as needed. Alternately, if you are unable to siphon them and only need one or two AP, simply run, install DLR, mill, mill.
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Stan Adecla
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2097 wrote:
wakkowolf wrote:

he's got no Datasuckers
--drops mic

He lists breakers and other programs separately.

--picks up mic and hides in a corner, sobbing.
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2097 wrote:
How has that part of the deck been working out so far?
Cool… didn’t think it’d work that good. Guess Freelancer is a tempting include for me now. :)


It is pretty handy. Even without DLR, worst case Joshua B is "Runner spends 1 click + 1 credit to cost the Corp 1 click + 2 credits.". So that's a net win, and if they let you get any turns with 5 clicks that's just gravy.
 
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Palpster
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Runrunrun, but no Dirty Laundry?

Also, DLR with everyone running Howard these days? How's that working out for you?

Edit: also, how do you not run into MU problems with just the one Grimoire?
 
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David Jackman
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A random aside:

The idea of playing non criminals 'like gabe' is rather illuminating, I think. I think of the old school archetypes, Gabe was the only one that did runner correctly. By correctly, I mean aggressively.

Now ive seen lots of new aggressive shaper decks, and some decent aggressive anarch decks. There were a couple tag-me kates at Plugged in that were quite impressive.

I think we are moving to a meta where every archetype will be rather aggressive, not just criminal. Which is great for the game!. Non interactive business like old school big rig and noise mill weren't indicative of interesting, dynamic games.
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Saan wrote:
I think we are moving to a meta where every archetype will be rather aggressive, not just criminal. Which is great for the game!. Non interactive business like old school big rig and noise mill weren't indicative of interesting, dynamic games.


I couldn't disagree more. I think we are moving to a meta where most Runners will be much *less* aggressive thanks to greater Corporate ability to punish overextended Runners. The current period strikes me as the last hurrah for super aggressive runners-- as the Spin Cycle continues I think we will see more and more conservative styles of play winning out.
 
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David Jackman
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beepers wrote:
Saan wrote:
A random aside:

The idea of playing non criminals 'like gabe' is rather illuminating, I think. I think of the old school archetypes, Gabe was the only one that did runner correctly. By correctly, I mean aggressively.

Now ive seen lots of new aggressive shaper decks, and some decent aggressive anarch decks. There were a couple tag-me kates at Plugged in that were quite impressive.

I think we are moving to a meta where every archetype will be rather aggressive, not just criminal. Which is great for the game!. Non interactive business like old school big rig and noise mill weren't indicative of interesting, dynamic games.


Oy vey. A "correct" way to run? Singular? How is deck building Eugenics at all good for the game (or any game, for that matter)?


Aggressive is a very vague term, but yes, I think it is the correct way to run. I didn't say 'reckless', mind you. Corps are starting to learn that drawing cards isnt the bane of corp play, and any corp, regardless of build, can push a runner that refuses to run in the first few turns.

I dont think saying that runners will have to be more aggressive constitutes a 'singular' way to play and build runner decks. Nor am I saying all decks will be the same - Shaper and criminal are certainly aggressive in different ways. But early game pressure from the runner is so very important, and from the tourneys ive been to lately, it just seems like the direction runner decks are going.

EDIT: I didn't want to derail discussion from the deck. My apologies. Was just a random observation.
 
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David Jackman
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beepers wrote:
Saan wrote:

Aggressive is a very vague term, but yes, I think it is the correct way to run. Corps are starting to learn that drawing cards isnt the bane of corp play, and any corp, regardless of build, can push a runner that refuses to run in the first few turns.

I dont think saying that runners will have to be more aggressive constitutes a 'singular' way to play and build runner decks. Nor am I saying all decks will be the same - Shaper and criminal are certainly aggressive in different ways. But early game pressure from the runner is so very important, and from the tourneys ive been to lately, it just seems like the direction runner decks are going.


I mean, that is where the Runner decks have been for months. I don't think it's possible for Runners to get any more aggressive. I have success waiting for the Corp to make their move first instead of throwing all my resources at their Centrals. Then I end up either stealing an agenda out of a remote, or rigging up sufficiently to make defending their remote impossible to defend. Is this the wrong way to play?


Maybe I havent played many tourneys in the past months. :)

What you describe sounds pretty aggressive, but its remote play instead of central play. You can put the corp in a spot denying them access to centrals.

I was simply stating that the days of decks that dont run with consistancy are over. Old school big rig ignored the corp for the first 4 turns. Noise Mill didnt have to run much at all, except at a few key moments. Its clearly normal for Criminal, and always has been.

And it surprised me to see things like Tag-me Kate, Whizzard running account siphon, and decks like Exile that cycle through their entire deck in the first 5-7 turns. And those lists were actually good! It led to really interesting games.
 
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Louis Cannon

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Kraken comboing with DLR? I like your moxy. I run Kraken in my current Noise deck because with mills there's a good chance you'll have an agenda in archives for the turn when you absolutely need to break into a remote.

I suggest using Spinal Modem instead of Grimoire just because it's better at supporting aggression. Consider dropping the Imps in favor of Demolition run because often times the corp will wipe viruses after the Imp hits the table and secondly when you're packing Medium and Nerve getting that big 5 card trash on Demo run is amazing. Like Imp you can also trash agendas with demo run if you're a cocky bastard that wants to use his Kraken later. Same Old Thing is perfect for this deck, not only for Account Siphon but to have a Kraken in your pocket for when you do score and have 2 clicks left over.

How's your deck's speed go for rig set-up and econ? I found when I was playing Whizzard I kept searching for card draw and econ from other factions so I wonder if you're facing the same issue. Modded was very useful to me since it's practically a Sure Gamble that also installs a program or hardware. Diesel was excellent as well since I was always hungry for some draw. Consider replacing an Account Siphon with a pair of either.
 
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Lysander
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Thank you all for your input. I took this deck to game night last night and after facing some of the best players in the Southeast, I'm considering the following changes:

-2 Imp
-2 Kraken
+ Crypsis
+ Grimoire
+ Same Old Thing
+ Demolition Run

I'm extremely happy with how well this deck performs. It has crushed all NBN and Jinteki opponents this far, and wins a bit over half the games against strong Weyland and HB decks. These changes should help if the initial onslaught isn't enough.

Kraken has worked very well in games that I had a clear advantage and the corp was struggling to get back in the game. However, I was likely to win those anyways and want to focus on stronger high ice, high Econ decks. Y'all were right about needing more than one console - in mid-game I had found myself low on MU against stronger opponents.


I'm also considering removing Vamp, as it too helps when I'm ahead, but is dead when trying to get back in the game for the final couple AP.
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Nate K
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I admittedly only skimmed the thread's discussion, but I didn't see anyone bring up a important point that is largely obvious yet should be established for the purposes of good Whizzard discussion:

Whizzard, like Gabe (and Rielle as well), has an ability that only functions when running. That means that, when playing him, you should run at least once a turn in order to take advantage of his ability. Subsequently it's beneficial to play him as you would play Gabe--run often and assemble your rig as necessary as you go along. (Rielle plays differently, though, because her ability changes the effectiveness of your icebreakers so getting at least a partial rig up is key to her strategy.)

That's why cards such as Datasucker, Dirty Laundry, Desperado, John Masanori, Medium, or Maker's Eye can be really good in a Whizzard list--they reward you for running! This is also why (despite the occasional claim to the contrary) not all Whizzard lists would be improved by playing Noise instead. True, fewer and fewer people have been making such a ridiculous claim as the game has matured, but for a long time it was frustrating trying to explain that Whizzard's ability to disrupt the Corp's economy and/or force the Corp to spread out their ice to protect their econ asset servers creates a completely different threat to Noise's random mill.

If you end your Whizzard turn without having made a run, you've either made a mistake or you're trying to get the most out of Data Leak Reversal.
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